The Inevitable Return with Zachary Zezima and Shuuluk Leo-Retz
The Inevitable Return with Zachary Zezima and Shuuluk Leo-Retz
Tyler: [00:00:00] The Swell Season Podcast is recorded by the Newsstand Studio at Rockefeller Center in the heart of Manhattan and is distributed by the Swell Season Surf Radio Network.
[00:01:00] [00:02:00]
Tyler: Hello and welcome to the Swell Season Surf Podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Brewer. Inevitable Return is a short documentary film that explores the history of how military technology and atomic testing became entangled in contemporary surfing amongst the militarized beaches of the San Diego area. Using verite footage and animation. The film follows Shalu, a Kumeyaay surfer who interacts daily with the resulting effects and complexities of occupation on his land and in his sport, and reclaims it as a practice of joy, play, and connection. This is one of the [00:03:00] many incredible films that we'll be screening at Shredding A new lens in surf filmmaking, a powerful short film program that challenges outdated stereotypes about who belongs in surf culture.
From Morocco to Palestine to the California coast. These film Spotlight surfers whose presence on the water redefines what it means to shred It is presented by OTC at the Brooks and will screen on Friday, July 25th at 8:00 PM at the Historic Sunshine Brooks Theater in Oceanside, California. So go check it out listeners, if you are in the area.
Through stories of access, identity, and resilience, shredding celebrates a new wave of surfers, expanding the sports image, and invites audiences to reimagine surf culture as a space of joy, freedom and connection. Here. Joining us is the program director and filmmaker behind the Inevitable Return, Zachary's Zema, and the subject of the film Shalu [00:04:00] Ette, to discuss the film and the film festival.
Zach Shalu, welcome to Swell Season. Super stoked to have you guys here.
Shuuluk: Yeah. Thank you.
Tyler: I just gotta say for Fox's sake, what a great movie. Holy shit. I, I just have to start. Like, your film is amazing. I thoroughly enjoy, enjoyed it. I really appreciate the story of how. Many of the surfing staples today that we take for granted are built on like this foundation of death destruction and the military complex and layered with your story Shalu, like of the other indigenous people's stories on top of these advancements like it's.
It's beautifully layered and really well done, and it's this great intertwining narrative. And I, I just, I first just want to commend both of you, uh, on what a great film and I was hoping you can kind of explain a [00:05:00] little bit to our listeners what your intent behind this film was.
Zack: Yeah. Thank you so much. I can start, I think a lot of the film is really, so I'll let.
Tyler: Yeah.
Zack: But I, I could start off by saying where this idea came from and, um, yeah. So I learned, I learned to surf when I moved to California like 12 years ago. Um, I grew up on Long Island, as you did.
Tyler: Yes.
Zack: I was not, I didn't, I didn't like have the means to surf there at the time as a kid.
So when I moved to to California, I started learning and I saw that, uh, surf culture, at least in LA was really different from the way that like the media portrays surfing and the way that surfers themselves portray surfing. There's this idea that, um, it's sort of like, uh, a pseudo religion. It's like this really, um, connective thing which I look, I don't disagree with.
But in the water, I, I definitely [00:06:00] witnessed stuff that would not fit into that framework. And, you know, I witnessed violence, I witnessed hate speech, and I witnessed things that felt like they were not, not, not only not appropriate anywhere, but like, definitely not in surfing. Um, so it just kind of got me thinking, like, why, why does this happen and why does this happen here?
Uh, and there's a burgeoning new, uh. Part of history called critical design. Sorry, not critical design, that's my other job. I teach art, I state la um, critical surf history. So there's a lot, I mean, there's a lot of history in surfing. There's a lot of reasons why surfing, um, is not always the most inclusive thing.
And I had a larger idea for like a huge film or like maybe a series, and I decided to start. It was really the military's influence in surfing and in the film it describes how wetsuits and wave forecasting and wave [00:07:00] measurements, um, and surfboard materials and designs and shapes all came from the military and specifically.
From the Southern California coast and a lot of it has to do with land use. And when I started like learning a little bit about that with the military in San Diego, um, it felt imperative for me to, um, include some indigenous voices. And I had already been talking to Mark Chavez from native like water about this film.
And Native like water, if you're not familiar, is a great program and can speak to it much better than me. Um. And I asked him like, do you work with any surfers who you think would be interested in like filming with me? And he was like, yeah, Sheik would be great. And we talked on the phone and I feel like Sheik really like got the idea and had a lot to add and had, um, you know, really powerful story on his own.
So that's kind of where my work ended and I think kind of took over. Um, so [00:08:00] I.
Shuuluk: Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, you know, I remember getting the text message from Zach and, um, mark and I, we had built a, we built a really good relationship over the years. I grew up. Um, born and raised on the Viejas Indian reservation. Moved to Hawaii when I was around a year old, then moved back when I was eight years old to the reservation and Mark found out about me, got in touch and so I had already had a surfing background being, we went out there, uh, my mom finished her degree at HPU, four years, turned into eight was the best upbringing ever.
Tyler: Seriously.
Shuuluk: yeah, so I was very fortunate in that regard. And. Came out here, had surfing involved, but I was distant from the beach, kind of, you know, um, reintroduced to surfing when I was around 14 years old. Fully, like I was back where I was in Hawaii, like surfing every day doing this. Um, [00:09:00] so long story short, when I got it, I was like, oh, this is so cool because I've never really understood this history of surfing in California and I definitely didn't understand the history of the militarization in California.
So having kind of those two things connect to me, I was like, whoa, this is so interesting. I'm like so intrigued and wanna learn more. Um. And, you know, Zachary was showing me just like different charts and different things and bikini toll and just like opening my mind up to like kind of the military influence.
So, you know, I was like, what do I have to add? You know? And that's what a huge thought was. You know, I was, uh, kind of hesitant at first because I really didn't know what I could add to that. Um, and Zach, you know, he, we sat down and he just told me like. I think it's gonna, you know, come out the way that it's meant to be.
And, um, I think we both really just trusted that process [00:10:00] and I didn't have an idea of what the end result would be. I didn't know how my story would fit in with that. And seeing the end result now, you know, it's, it's very, uh, it's just, it makes a lot of sense and, um, I didn't realize that within it, so.
Tyler: Well, it's, it's fascinating 'cause like you have a, you have a connection with, um, with this person who created this technology that we all use today, uh, for surfing. And you, you, you had a connection through your mother with Walter Monk, uh, which is mentioned in the story. And, uh. I thought that was an interesting little kind of like shatter point in history, almost like being able to talk to this person because for our listeners, if they're not familiar, he is basically like the father of wave forecasting, but.
He did it not because for anything, you know, [00:11:00] peaceful, it was so that they could learn land, you know, in, in all the islands in the Pacific, uh, you know, during World War ii and that they could strike and kill people more efficiently, basically. Um. Which is fascinating, and he, you know, and then, but then he, you know, this is a tool that we all use for pleasure and it, but it was used for pain.
And, but he did say something to you that I thought was fascinating, and he said this quote like, your, your mom asked him, well, maybe you should tell this story. Can you tell this story? Is this all right? I don't wanna spoil it for everyone's act, but it's like, I think it's a really poignant, uh, quote that he says.
It sets the tone for the rest of the film, basically. You know, it's just, I don't know, like, uh, uh, can you tell a little bit about this story and what, what was happening? Why, why you got to meet him and, and what was said? Listeners are on their pins and needles now because I.
Shuuluk: [00:12:00] So back in 2018, my mother, uh, was contacted to, um, come over and discuss a potential mural project that, uh, painted and kind of celebrated the Kumeyaay history. And that's how we ended up at Walter Monk's house. And so, as I was there, it was, it was a great time. My mom really wanted me to bring, wanted to bring me, um.
You know this, I didn't even know at the time either, you know, I was a, probably a senior in high school, but I never really looked into that. Um, and then so, you know, started connecting the dots and seeing, I was like, wow, this is really cool. And so we go over there and pretty much it was the, he shared a sentiment.
Uh, my mom had asked, you know, what advice would you have for, uh, shalu, a native boy who is, uh, young, a young. Man, um, you know, coming into himself, something like that. And he was pretty [00:13:00] much just like, you know, it's, it's not your land. And, um, yeah, the way that, that I, you know, I don't even know
Tyler: a random thing to say.
Shuuluk: It was so random, you know? And that was the thing is that, like when I told Zachary this, you know, every, everyone is taken back when I. And I tell them, you know, and that's, I, I was again, and, you know, another piece that I guess proved instrumental in the film, but at the time, you know, was really kind of like a, a talking point of like, does, are we giving, you know, thought to something that really isn't even there?
You know? Was it like within his, uh, later years and going C nine, like it didn't make sense. And so it's interesting that it now serves as kind of a really important, uh, piece in the film from the outside perspective. Uh, but yeah, it was an awkward quote and definitely wasn't expecting it.
Tyler: I, I can't help but feel like [00:14:00] though, like Zach, particularly, like that quote, serves a real purpose in this story. Um, it's, it's this mentality of the men of that time in that era where Mike made right. And it was, you know, the discard, dis discard of indigenous culture. And, but at the same time, like, you know, all those people in the military, many of them spent time in Hawaii.
And that's how surfing grew is because many of them spent time in Hawaii, learned to surf and brought it back with them, you know, and, and they, obviously it was brought back before, but it really took off. And so it's interesting that you have this mentality of like someone who one could feel like attached to nature.
They, they've figured out the mathematics of. Wave forecasting and something that you know, can be used for something peaceful and something that can be helpful and something natural, [00:15:00] and you would think he would be more tuned in with things because of that. But instead he has this attitude of, well, your indigenous culture, this is not your land anymore.
This is our land almost, and this is our sport almost. I feel like that's what happened with surfing is it got taken over from indigenous people in Hawaii and it became. Our sport, you know, instead, and it's not yours anymore. Type of attitude. And I think that's kind of, just thought that was what really fascinating and set the tone.
I could be way off, Zach. I don't know. I could be reading into it, but Was that your intent? Yes.
Zack: yeah. And I, yeah, I think there's a few things I wanna speak to on, on this point. One is, um, the way that this story came about, um, I di I didn't know that Sha and his mother had this connection when me and Sha started filming. Um, she kind of like brought it up. When I first met her when we weren't filming, and I was like, oh my God, I had no idea.
And that's kind of, that's kind of the magic of documentary [00:16:00] filmmaking. Like things come up and things happen that you weren't expecting. And there's
Tyler: strong with you.
Zack: yeah. If I set out to find someone who had a connection with Walter Monk, I would never find them. I,
Tyler: No. It's like, why would you?
Zack: right. But I, but it happened, and I think, uh, I don't wanna speak too much for, for you, you, but I know there was like maybe a little bit of hesitation to like, speak to this story on camera.
Um, because Walter Monk gives like a revered figure in San Diego especially, um. But I do think that there are complicated stories that we all have and things that we all say and that, um, that uh, uh, uh, show sort of like these layers of our consciousness and our attitude, whether he knew what he was saying or not, or whether it was interpreted the way that he meant it or not, I think it does reveal, um, a certain attitude, not only about surfing, but [00:17:00] about.
Um, like imperialism and colonialism and this idea that the military is a dominating force, which has influenced surfing in these ways by integrating tools of war into this, um, like indigenous practice. Um, the other thing I was gonna mention, actually I'm forgetting right now, but we can, we can come back to it if we need, or you can edit that out, but, um, yeah.
I think I'll leave it there. I'll probably remember the other point later,
Tyler: well, to me it, it's, I find it like, I just, I just feel like, um, there's one of the questions I wanted to ask you guys, how you think, how do you feel about separating the discovery or the artwork from the artist or the engineer or the mathematician, you know, because it's, it's a really. It's hard, right?
Like it's very difficult. There are these [00:18:00] complicated characters in history. Um, especially in surfing. We have a lot of complex people who have done amazing things for the sport, but have also not been always the best people. And it's like always like a, a weird put, you know, tension of like trying to square those things and. I think there's redemption in it too. Maybe in the sense that we are using this tool now for peaceful purposes as well, and we're using it to a degree that brings maybe people together more, or allows people to experience a certain sense of joy or excitement or even entertainment maybe. And maybe there's redemption in that, I don't know.
Or maybe it's all just built on. And I don't know how you guys feel about this, but maybe a lot of our surf culture just built on so much death and destruction. Is it redeemable in some ways?
Shuuluk: Oh, you know, that's you. I like that you mentioned that. We have redeemed it in some ways. 'cause I [00:19:00] think we truly have, you know, and I think at the start, and there's like some cyclical pattern to this and you know, the tracing, the history of surfing back to its foundations, you know, I think, um, ebbs and flows, you know, it's a wave in, in, in itself.
And uh, you know, I think tracing it back to times of war. Um, that wave rides with the wave of humanity, you know, and looking at the waters of reflection of yourself. It's a reflection of this world around us. So I think it's a perfect, uh, emblematic example of kind of what you're saying. Like that redemption, that redemption of yourself, that redemption of this way, you make relations around you,
Tyler: And the technology even can be redeeming, you know, it's like. I'm very aware that everything, I feel like every candle casts a shadow, right? Like there's a good and negative to all these things. [00:20:00] Um, and yeah, it's, it's interesting like, you know, surfboard foam, you know, the blanks that we use were, came from air aerospace technology, you know, Bob Simmons, you know, worked for aerospace and like, those are airplane wings that are used in, you know, uh, fighter jets and things of that nature.
So it's, it's interesting that. Yes. So much that we benefit from unfortunately, has, has come from so much death. And maybe, but that's, I think what you're doing then with this festival, uh, Zach, is that part of the redemption by acknowledging the past, acknowledging some of the destruction that we've had, uh, and the, the, the destruction in the wake of all these things, but also looking towards a brighter future, trying to open it up to everyone, you know.
Zack: Yeah, exactly. So I think. That's kind of what I was thinking about with this redeeming quality. I mean, someone might watch this film or even other films in the [00:21:00] program and come away with like a neg, maybe a negative feeling or, um, a feeling that surfing is bad or, or something like that. And that's really not the intention.
I think, like you said, acknowledging the history is really the, the first step. Redeeming it. And I think if we kind of blindly participate in things, not just surfing, but in, in other parts of our everyday lives and not like interrogate the history or even be curious about it, um, I think that leaves us kind of vulnerable and, um. By acknowledging and learning. I think that that is a way to take something that maybe was negative or deadly or a part of war and make it something beautiful again. Like it, like it always has been. Um, and I think like she, look, you talk about that a little bit in the film, that it's, um, it's kind of like your ceremony, right?
And I think people. [00:22:00] Surfing for all different kinds of things, but if you're someone who uses it for power and domination over one another and over the ocean, and you have no idea about the thing that's under your feet coming from, uh, the military industrial complex, I think your only repeating mistakes and like not learning from history. So that's kind of, that's kind of like the underlying theme of the film. I don't know, I don't think it's explicit. I think the film itself, um, asks you to ask a lot of questions and doesn't necessarily have those answers. Um, but that was kind of like my mindset behind it. Yeah.
Tyler: Sure. Look, I am curious, like where you live now, uh, are there other kids and other people your age that surf? Or are you the only one in your area, uh, on, on your, on your land that that surfs?
Shuuluk: Uh, for a while [00:23:00] I think I was, um, but now my. Younger cousin, he just graduated high school, he surfs, you know, he's, uh, he's just bought his new, uh, like this new board and was so stoked about it, calling me up and everything. So, you know, that that's the greatest feeling ever, uh,
Tyler: I,
Shuuluk: I know that I, I just know the appreciation that I have and the, the, uh.
The revitalization of my connection to like, not only the ocean and a sport and a passion that I love, but my deepening of an understanding of myself and um, my people's history. So it's beautiful. I know that'll come for everyone who is, uh, able to be blessed by the ocean, especially San Diego and my people in that.
Tyler: I'm super curious, um, like what it was like growing up, surfing. Um, and I, the only reason I, one of the main reasons I ask is 'cause I feel a kinship in [00:24:00] some ways too. 'cause I grew up away from the ocean. I was like an hour away. It was tough to go and tough to get a ride down to the beach, and I didn't have a lot of other people who grew up surfing around me.
Zach, you can attest there weren't a lot of people in Long Island surfing, you know, um, in the nineties and eighties. But there's something interesting I think that happens to you when you grow up kind of surfing alone, like, or not having, like people in your immediate area. And I'm curious like how that was, how surfing played into your upbringing, but also. Your connection with your, your culture and your family and your history and how those two intertwined and made for a more unique upbringing within surfing
Shuuluk: Yeah. You know, it's, that's a great question and I think it's an endless discovery and that's the beauty of surfing. Right. You know, just gotta preface it like that. So like, you could ask me this question probably tomorrow and I'd give you a slightly different answer. Right. You [00:25:00] know, so it's a beautiful question.
And, um, you know, I think, I think I was, I can't even explain how fortunate I feel to have spent time in Hawaii and nourished by the, the land and the people of that area, uh, because they really ignited that flame, um, that I would soon discover was always burning, you know, and.
As a surfer and growing up in a, uh, at a young age, you know, I really couldn't access the ocean. It wasn't until I was like 14 years old that I started being able to, uh, get down to the beach, like on a consistent basis, taking the bus route and stuff. Um, and my parents were okay with that. So it was, that was, that was cool.
'cause they knew I loved it. Um, and I was. Always doing it and always surfing, [00:26:00] like you said, usually by myself. It was usually like my dad. Maybe my dad. He'll, he'll, he surfs. He used boogie boards and surf standup paddle ports and uh.
Tyler: That doesn't count. No, I'm just kidding. No, I'm just kidding.
Shuuluk: You know, he, that's what I tell him as well. I go, I go, yeah. You know, 50 years, 55 years old, he's, he's wearing out, he's thrown in the white flag.
Tyler: Oh no, this
Shuuluk: could
Tyler: don't give up, man. Don't give up.
Shuuluk: right. I know that's a hard thing though, 'cause like it's so true. Once you stop surfing for a while, it's really hard to pick it.
Back up like you did bef and it takes a while, you know? And so I'm, you know, still, um, I'm al I always feel like I'm still in that area of surfing, you know, and I think that's in part due to the distance I am from the beach, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's a bummer not being able to like look out or drive five minutes away, [00:27:00] check the surf, and then decide which spot you want to go.
You know, I kind of just like. Blind it, you know, go and get there by a certain time. So it's, it was, it did feel like that a lot growing up and um, as I started understanding and, you know, I was getting in more involved in my culture and learning my people's history, singing bird song, sweating, and really just kind of taking a moment to.
To appreciate that aspect of life. I really realized that what I, um, cherish so much surfing, the passion that I had, my connection that I felt was always in existence and always living through me. Uh, and I really appreciated that understanding that I was able to deepen. And if you look at San Diego, the San Diego River, it's the most beautiful thing ever.
It flowed from MCA Mountains all the way about. [00:28:00] 10 miles north of where my house is, all the way out to, uh, the ocean. And it was a bloodline of San Diego, you know, and that's where I was, uh, displaced from is, is from that area of that bloodline, from that water. And I think there's something really powerful to that for me to be able to, um, recognize that like can be said and acknowledge that.
So in the same way that I think this can be a great, you know, this movie has been, uh, or, and will be a great understanding and questioning moment for the audience. It was the equal thing for me. You know, it really made me cherish that and take a step back and acknowledge it again, because just in that little way of understanding our connection to the water and understanding our connection, um.
As people who have now been displaced from the water, you, you really do [00:29:00] revitalize that. And in kumeyaay we say haka. And that translates directly to, uh, I acknowledge or I see the fire that burns with inside you. And it's so true, uh, that we have to continue to acknowledge those things to keep that fire burning inside of us.
And. Surfing has been that, and it always will be that, 'cause it's like I said, endless, you know, and the creation is continuous.
Tyler: Do you, how do you feel when you go down to surf in San Diego and someone tries to pull like a localist localism type of attitude or something like. That must, does that get frustrating at all? Like, do you ever just wanna be like, fuck you guys, get off my fucking land?
Shuuluk: Yeah. And I, and, and I, and I, and I find myself doing that more often than I would like, you know, I, I, I still find myself falling into aggressive manners, you know, when I'm out there, uh, if it's, you know, if it's, if someone's [00:30:00] doing like what you described, uh, I don't think, yeah, I don't, I don't think it's like taking bullshit like that, you know, and people are miseducated and people are ill-informed and, um, you know, if I can just continue to.
You have that backbone. Uh, I'll speak on it whenever I have the opportunity.
Tyler: Can I, can I ask like, uh, what did your mom do? Like, what was she studying in Hawaii and, and what was it? Was she a painter that, that she, so she did murals. I was curious like what she did to. In order to be asked to meet Walter Monk and, and also like discuss this like whole mural process. So I was curious like how she fits into all this.
Shuuluk: Yeah. Uh, so no, she's not, she's not an, she's an artist in many ways, but not a painter. Um, she went to HPU and she, uh, was studying sociology and native Hawaiian studies.
Tyler: Wow.
Shuuluk: So she's, and my mom's a very intelligent woman. She's, uh, [00:31:00] always been a, uh, a lover of. All knowledges. And so she's been able to work inside academia, um, as advising in the advising capacity, in the consulting capacity, um, and in the creation of like grants projects.
Um, and so my mom is, uh, definitely someone who, people within San Diego and within the academics of Native American kind of faceted area. Sh her name is, uh, definitely highly frequented or sought after to, for approval for these different types of things. Um,
Tyler: so did you grow up learning a lot about Hawaii, indigenous Hawaiian culture as well then I would imagine, or been exposed to some of that and, and the surfing connection there?
Shuuluk: yeah. Yeah, I was, yeah. Again, I was very fortunate, you know, we had an A family out there. Kapo is like [00:32:00] Kaka Kapo, who's a professional. Uh, yeah. His, his wife, auntie Lori, they adopted us into their, their family when we first moved out there. And, uh, uh, so, you know, I had my Haii family out there and I was able to, um, you know, get, and, you know, real good appreciation and understanding, um, and love, you know, I just, you feel the love, you know.
And I think that's where it all clicks. And I felt the love out in Hawaii from, from the family and the exposure that I got to, you know, I, I, I'm always endeavoring to learn more about Hawaiian culture and the history of Hawaii. But, uh, yeah, I would be a fool to say that I, I, I was immersed within it to a point to where I understood it, because I still, it's hard to understand
Tyler: Yeah,
Shuuluk: what happened.
Tyler: well, I think there's a kinship, I imagine, you know, um, I mean there's a kinship I imagine amongst, [00:33:00] and this is a. I'm a cis white guy, so, you know, maybe so part of me, but I imagine there is this, it seems like there's this connection of indigenous cultures, especially over in, in recent years, I feel like it's, you know, more connecting.
I feel like indigenous cultures around the world are starting to connect more and starting to speak out more and trying to preserve culture, but also assert. That, Hey, we were here before this was us, and you took away something really special. You know? And I think it's, um, I don't know, I don't know if you feel like that, if there's this awakening happening and also this understanding of people like me maybe who are starting to become more aware of, of indigenous culture and indigenous histories and, and how we've. Serve, you know, if not served it correctly in history and then butchers to it. Um, yeah, I don't know. I was just curious like how you [00:34:00] feel about that and if you feel like there's connection there when you, when you surf and when you meet other Hawaiians or people of other indigenous cultures around the world that that may surf as well.
Shuuluk: A hundred percent, you know, unequivocally. Um, there is, there is connection, unspoken connection, spoken connection, historical connection, uh, like archeological connections. It's amazing. It's beautiful. And, you know, I recently was out last, uh. Two Aprils ago out in Hawaii for the Buffalo Classic, if you're familiar with that.
And I had one auntie tell me a story about how during the A movement they had Lakotas and Mohawks come in to Hawaii who were escaping the FBI back in the day, and the CIA who were out there to get them, and they house them a bunch. So there is a presence down in Makaha of descendants of Lakota
Tyler: No way.
Shuuluk: That's what I'm told.
Tyler: Wow.
Shuuluk: And so it's these, these type of things, they're existing all [00:35:00] around us, you know, and, uh, it's, it's beautiful. You know, our connection's always. It's, it's always been there. And I think we, it's epigenetic, you know, it's like it's within our DNA to recognize it. Uh, and uh, it's beautiful.
Yeah, for sure.
Tyler: Zach, I love the film because you, you covered a wide range. A wide range of um. You know, inventions that have had these effects, you know, and I thought it was interesting, like the people you brought up, like Hugh Bratner, who invented neoprene, you know, for, you know. So that they could be more nimble and loose, so, so they can attack people.
And then the one name that really stood out to me, I was really interested and I knew a bit about, but, uh, John Kelly, who, you know, trained frog men, you know how to fight, you know, and under and how to survive in the water. Yet this guy, the back half of his [00:36:00] life was dedicated towards Hawaiian culture. Preserving Hawaiian culture, preserving the environment, fighting the military industrial complex. So it's it, like I said, there are these redemption stories. Were there any other stories you came across that you didn't include that you think should be mentioned or talked about that, that you'd like to explore even the future?
Zack: I think the one that comes up for me is about Willard Bascom, who was an oceano. Had no in working with the military, but um, like in the forties and fifties, that's like where he ended up and he was a part of the first, the first scientist to go to Bikini Atto and, and awake, to which I mentioned in the film.
Um, but I just wrote an article actually for a emotion magazine, uh, that kind of, um, explains this a little bit more [00:37:00] and integrates. Interviews from Native Bikinians and quotes from Willard's book where he, he kind of kept a journal of his, um, military exploits and with the ocean. And so he has like a first person written record of when he arrived at Bikini and like what he saw of the people and the place and like how people lived.
And then there are first person accounts of the Bikinians being. Uh, like contacted by the US military and being asked to leave, um, and being told that this would be for the betterment of all humanity and it would end all war, end, all end all wars to allow their home to be like a bombing ground. And, um, like the, that's, that's mentioned a little bit in the film, but in the article, in emotion, it like has the actual quotes and actual like first person accounts and, um.
It's striking. I mean, I think you, you [00:38:00] might think that Willard like this military scientist would be, um, unsympathetic and he, he really isn't. He, he's like, he feels, he feels sad for this situation. He doesn't quite understand like why it's happening. Um, and neither do the people, but everyone's just like kind of doing it because that's what the government said should happen.
And then it happens. And the bikini toll is used for many, many, um, nuclear bomb tests. And part of, part of what they were testing was to see how bombs would, um, interact with the water, but also interact with ships. And what, what came out of it was wave measurement, um, buoys and technology that we use today, uh, like on our Surfline app.
It's the same. It's the same thing. Um, but really what also came out of it was like nuclear bombs are devastating, like within that very small amount of space. Outside of that, like the waves don't travel that far. [00:39:00] The fallout obviously does, but like the actual physical, immediate results are really small and contained.
And it's like, why did we need to drop 50 bombs on this island to figure that out? And then the Bikinians could, could never return even though they were promised or return. And they are now. Spread around the world. Many of them are, are in the deep south of the continental US or at other islands in the South Pacific, and there's like six or seven original Bikinians still alive.
Everyone else who is of Bikinian descent, um, has never been there.
Tyler: Wow.
Zack: it's just like, uh, an enormous tragedy and almost nothing came out of it. It was like completely unnecessary. So, yeah, it's just kind of a shocking story that most people dunno. Yeah.
Tyler: it's crazy 'cause it's, it's, you have this theme in the, in the, in the film as well where it's like the military. Takes up [00:40:00] all this land, all this indigenous land, and for what, you know, like, uh, camp Pendleton, you know, took up all this indigenous land and put it off limits to surfers too, you know, up until like, you know, seventies and eighties even, you know?
And, um, and it's just, it's fascinating, right? Like the buoys we use. Are drenched in, in, in, you know, the exploitation of, of the bikini, the bikini at toss, the people from the bikini islands. You know, it's, it's really, it really makes you pause and think. It's like, fuck, why do we need, why do we need wars in military to advance technology to do this stuff?
You know?
Zack: It's strange. It's a strange dichotomy. Yeah. And I think it brings up a point that I, I'm remembering now from earlier, um, Dina Gilio Whitaker, who I know knows and maybe other people listen to your podcast, know she's, um, an amazing academic [00:41:00] and, um, activist and surfer and, and, uh, I was talking to her for a long time about this film, like right from the beginning, and she sent me some articles and some books. You know, I've figured out this thing called, uh, like self indigeneity. She, it's, I think it's in her new book. There's maybe an article about it. Um, and it, it basically talks about like white people landing in places and being like, okay, we're here now, and if we've been here for like a certain amount of time, we are now like the indigenous people of this place.
And it's like now ours. And like nobody else can come in. And do what they want. It's like ours now. And that's like how the world works. Um. And that's really internalized in, in our culture. Our culture is so imperialistic and colonial that it's like the reason that this, that the US even exists the way that it does.
Um, so when the military [00:42:00] goes places in the forties, or if someone's going to Malibu today, like there's this idea that like, if I'm here, I own this and I can do what I want. And it's so destructive and such, such, um. an attitude that really like delegitimizes not only indigenous people, but like everyone else around you.
Um, it's so anti community when I think the surfing community actually is, is really strong and could be even stronger if there was more acknowledgement of our history. Yeah.
Tyler: It's interesting, like I just did a, an episode with Walter Brenna, who's a lawyer fighting to protect Pavona in Costa Rica right now. And we talk a lot about how a lot of people from the US and Europe, a lot of white people are coming in and gentrifying their area, making it unlivable. You know, people can't live there, they can't afford it, they can't do it.
And then they were also. Tearing up, you know, local businesses and people who [00:43:00] are indigenous to there who have property, and they're just, it's kind of, it's kind of sad. Like I feel like I've, I've talked a lot about surfing and colonialism and, you know, especially over the last year, I've had a lot of people on and it's, it, it really, it's so sad to see that, that. Unfortunately there, we've left, uh, not a great wake, you know, with a lot of places and surfing particularly has had some negative effects as well as positive, but it, it's definitely, yeah, tough to ha sometimes have a critical eye on it, I guess, to be sober about it.
Zack: Yeah, I mean there's this idea of exploring and finding what these things. They don't need to be found. They already, they already belong to someone or to somewhere. And just because I didn't know about it doesn't mean I found it, you know?
Tyler: [00:44:00] Yeah. It is, it, it's, it's funny, like, I think endless summer set that template, you know, of this attitude of, of surf exploration and kind of. And, and there were, you know, there were lots of exploits of surfers traveling, and some of them did it right. You know, as they did it. They, they tried to ingrain, try to be low key, try to respect the culture, respect people.
Unfortunately, the masses that follow after, you know, it just keeps, you know, eroding that unfortunately. But yeah, we, we were, I don't know because you, I don't know about you, uh, Shalu, but you know. Zach, you didn't grow up surfing. I grew up surfing and it's like you get this whole narrative, this whole story that's kind of ingrained in your head.
This, you know, you read all the magazines and they, you know, they to, for the most part, they weren't critical. They were, I don't wanna say exploitative, but they definitely. You know, [00:45:00] uh, they definitely made it sexy to travel and have this adventure and feel swashbuckling and all this sort of stuff, and you don't, and you're like, oh, and we get to know the natives and hang out with the local and native and, you know, po you know, it's just very condescending attitude that surfing has had.
And I'm curious then, now with this film program that you've put together, um, how did this come about? What is your hope in messaging for this festival and, and hoping to get across? 'cause it, it feels like this is kind of in that, heading in that direction. I was just bringing up,
Zack: Yeah. So I think, um, typically surf film festivals focus on celebrity or. Uh, performance or beauty. And I think there's nothing wrong with like, having films about those things. I think surfing incorporates a lot of those things, but there's so many other things that surfing incorporates or is about or is [00:46:00] a part of.
And I think typically those aren't in festivals. And I think, um. That, that falls on, on the shoulders of the programmers and the, the audience that they believe they have. And I think that, um, people should be challenged more. And I think that we should give people credit to like, allow themselves to be challenged too.
So a lot of these films, while they might incorporate those ideas of like power, celebrity, or beauty and performance, um, they also incorporate a lot of other things. Um. Uh, like underrepresented voices or, um, there's, there's a film about wiping out. I mean, we all wipe out. No one wants to talk about it,
Tyler: It's true.
Zack: it.
Tyler: We just wanna watch it on, on a, in a segment in a movie. That's it.
Zack: Right. And I think actually there's so much to learn from wiping out and from like quote unquote failing. It's like if you didn't do the thing you set up to do, does that [00:47:00] mean you failed? Or does that mean you learned something? And I think surfing can teach us so much and we really have to be open. To all of that.
Um, and yeah, I think the program is critical of surfing overall. I think it also is a celebration of surfing and I think hopefully the same way in my film, like asks questions. I hope that people come away from the program itself and from the screening itself, having more questions about surfing than answers and maybe having their mind opened a little bit if they have never seen films like this.
Um, I also wanna say that the film incorporates. Uh, a few animations from Arne Janan Wong, who is an amazing surfer and animator from the sixties, who, uh, grew up in Chinatown. San Francisco was surfing on Ocean Beach in the sixties with no wetsuit and what taught himself how to animate and animated all the sequences for the first, um.
Surf films in the sixties. So if you, I'm forgetting the, the titles off the top of [00:48:00] my head, but you know, if there's an animation in the sixties surf film, uh, he did it. So those are, those are in the program. And there's also, uh, just as a little, little tidbit, Laird Hamilton had seen his animations in these films and in animations there's like a tiny little person on a huge gigantic, like unbelievable wave.
Laird was like, oh, well that seems impossible, but I wanna do that. And now like Laird Hamilton is like the big wave guy. So I think it also just sort of speaks to the power of animation. You know, I'm an animator, but also just filmmaking in general. I think things can be so influential in ways that. You never would've expected, I don't think Arne sat down and made this unbelievable animation being like, I wanna, you know, uh, influence some, some kid to like do this.
It's like, yeah. So, yeah, I'm just hoping that the program is influential and inspirational in some way, and filmmakers will be there for the q and [00:49:00] a. Um, so hopefully, uh, you know, if we wanna talk, if anyone in the audience wants to talk to anybody who was in the film or made the films, they have that opportunity.
Um, and if I could plug the other two dates. There's two more dates. Yeah. So besides July 25th, there's August 2nd at, uh, digital Gym in San Diego, and then August 30th at the Philosophical Research Society in Los Angeles. So you have three opportunities. I would love
Tyler: it to New York?
Zack: invite me. We'll do it.
Tyler: You're invited. We just have to find a theater because they ain't cheap around here. Um, but I, I mean, 'cause that's like right up our community's alley. This is, would be really appropriate. I feel like what it. What is it? I mean, I don't know, like surfing is so good at being the sugar for medicine.
I feel like, you know, it's, it can be such a great vehicle to get a point across or to, [00:50:00] uh, use it to invite someone to engage in a much broader, larger issue. Um, I don't know. I was hoping you could speak to that. Like, I don't know if that's a part of that inspiration in doing this, doing this film.
Like how, what, look, actually, Zach. Why are you doing this festival? What, what sparked it? What got you motivated? You know, because I, I, I don't, I think we talked, like I used to do the New York Surf Film Festival and, you know, my, my, uh, motivations were to bring a community together, of course, and get people stoked and just see movies in a proper theater.
But I'm curious, like, where, where did this start and how did you kind of, you know, come to organizing it?
Zack: Yeah, I mean, I think it's just a combination of all my research and all my feelings about surf culture. I think it really kind of portrays itself as a certain. Thing. And I think there's a lot of capitalism kind of ingrained in it and a lot of like big surfing wants surfing to [00:51:00] like be a certain thing, um, to sell boards or board shorts or what vacations or whatever.
And, um, surfing's a practice. It's like not just a sport. I think the idea of it being a sport is quite. Really, it's a practice and it is a practice of what you make it to be. And I think many different people use it in many different ways. Um, so I think for the surfer who goes out to Topanga and yells at people, uh, like if they watch this program, they might be like, oh, like surfing can be this too. Or it can be that too.
Um, I.
It's, it's really just about kind of like highlighting, uh, characters and stories that I think are not often told in surfing. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Tyler: It's a, looks like a pretty heavy his, [00:52:00] like a big list of great shorts. We have gender outlaw in it, which is a great movie that I enjoyed. And, uh, you know, I've had Tyler on. Um, so I mean, you've got some great stuff in here. I'm really bummed I can't go, but I'm appreciative. I got to see this. Um, where can our listeners, uh, go and buy tickets?
Get everything ready. This is your chance to plug and, uh, get the word out.
Zack: Um, so right now you can buy tickets for the July 25th screening at the Sunshine Brooks Ocean Oceanside Theater, um, on their website. The tickets for Digital Gym and Philosophical Research Society are not online yet, but if you follow my films, Instagram, the Inevitable Return, uh, just search that it should come up.
Um, or my name Zachary Zema or Shas name. [00:53:00] And we're all connected to the film, so if you follow us, there'll be some info on when tickets are available and you know the full info on.
Tyler: and she, look, what's next for you? What are you, what do you, what are your plans now? What do you got going on and what, anything you'd like to share.
Shuuluk: Uh, you know, getting out to the water. I've been, uh, I've been in Arizona now for, uh, since last August, so,
Tyler: Have you been to the Wave pool there yet?
Shuuluk: no, I haven't, that thing is pricey. I gotta, I gotta get my money up, not my money up before, but, uh, I'm out here in law school, so I'm, uh,
Tyler: Oh man. How are you enjoying
Shuuluk: Going through the shredder, but I'll, I'll try to make it out unscathed as possible. Um,
Tyler: What's your hope to do with that, if you don't mind me asking?
Shuuluk: federal Indian policy. So I want to go back to California and, uh, work with local communities and then eventually my [00:54:00] own.
Tyler: Love it. That's awesome. Well, guys, I really appreciate you coming on and spending the time. And listeners, if you can go, go follow the film. Um, it, the, the Inevitable Return, uh, Zachary zma, it's. It's beautiful. It's really well done. It's super entertaining. Um, visually really nice as well. Surfing's not too bad either Sheek, uh, you know, from one goofy foot to another, look pretty good.
Uh, your styles looking nice, so some of those chop hops you were trying for, you know, so on the rights. But all really good and, uh, thank you guys so much. And, uh, listeners, go check it out and, uh, of course, don't forget to hit like, and subscribe and uh, follow at swell seasoned surf radio guys. Really appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
Shuuluk: Thank you.
Tyler: Got it. [00:55:00]