Ready For It with Sasha Jane Lowerson

[00:00:00] Tyler: The Swell Season Podcast is recorded by the Newsstand Studio at Rockefeller Center in the heart of Manhattan and is distributed by the Swell Season Surf Radio Network.

[00:00:47] Hello and welcome to the Swell Season Surf podcast. I'm your co-host, Tyler

[00:00:53] Karen: Brewer, and I'm your co-host Karen Song.

[00:00:56] Tyler: Karen, so lovely to have you here. I know [00:01:00] it's good to be back. I missed you. I missed you too. You know, you're like, I mean, you're in New York for two months and I didn't even know, didn't get to see you, didn't you?

[00:01:08] I know. Well, we,

[00:01:08] Karen: I tried. Yes. You know, some people like to surf only uptown and some people like to surf only downtown, so it's difficult. And then with parking being what it is now, it's nuts. Yeah,

[00:01:20] Sasha: yeah. You

[00:01:21] Tyler: know, I'm just saying uptown a little bit. Emptier maybe. Well, I'm gonna keep that quiet, actually, don't mind.

[00:01:27] I'm gonna ignore that. Put it

[00:01:29] Karen: on blast.

[00:01:31] Tyler: Shall we get into

[00:01:32] Karen: it? Yes. I am so excited, uh, for this episode and for our guests. We've

[00:01:37] Tyler: got such an amazing guest. Mm-hmm. Um, she is a trailblazer in the surfing world. In March, in 2022, Sasha Jane Loon placed ninth in the Newso Festival of Surfing, becoming the first trans woman to compete in surfing at the professional level.

[00:01:57] Then two months later, she placed [00:02:00] first in the open women's, uh, lager division at the Western Australian state titles. This win garnered her a lot of attention and provoked the surfing world to have a conversation about the inclusion of trans athletes in the world of professional surfing.

[00:02:17] Karen: Air quotes, conversation.

[00:02:19] Yes.

[00:02:20] Sorry.

[00:02:21] Tyler: No, absolutely. And, and then I'm like,

[00:02:23] Karen: is there a conversation? Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Well,

[00:02:26] Sasha: it is, and, and

[00:02:27] Tyler: the thing is like, then. A lot of things kicked off on February 3rd of this year. Mm-hmm. When the World Surf League announced a new policy allowing trans women to compete in its, uh, women's category, if they proved their testosterone levels, uh, had fallen within a defined range.

[00:02:45] And while this announcement was originally released somewhat quietly the following days, Bethany Hamilton then went on to social media to protest the. This decision and boycott all W S L events. [00:03:00] Um, on swell season, we try to have a thoughtful conversation with our friends at Benny's Club and try to sift through the mountain of di misinformation that is out there.

[00:03:12] And our conversation inevitably drifted towards Sasha and all the incredible work that she has done. Um, the conversation got her attention actually, and, uh, we wanted to allow her to speak on her behalf because we obviously were talking about her. Um, you know, but I think it was, it would. We'd be remiss if we didn't invite her on to really have, uh, broaden this conversation and really try to educate as many people as possible and all of our listeners.

[00:03:41] So, uh, without further ado, Sasha Jane Loon, welcome to Swell Season. We are really stoked to have you on

[00:03:49] Karen: and super honored as well. Yeah. You know, as a pioneer in this sport and a, a pioneer on so many levels, like is just like massive respect and just such an honor [00:04:00] to have you here.

[00:04:01] Sasha: Yeah, we're inspired.

[00:04:01] Thank you so much for the kind words, Tyler and Karen, and, um, Hey gang, how are you? So, yeah, basically you guys did a pretty good job, like starting that conversation and, and I think, um, you've covered so many good points, but, um, It's just really sad how like the whole conversation in the US at the moment is so political and so polarized towards, um, the negative of trans women.

[00:04:32] And, and I think you did set it up great for. A further conversation, so here we are. And, um, yeah,

[00:04:42] Karen: actually that's a good first point that I would love to discuss because I think, um, the response in America is just on this whole other level and, you know, there's so many things that are being politicized and so many kind of issues being thrown out there.

[00:04:57] Um, as a way I, I don't know. It it, [00:05:00] there, there's a lot happening right now. A lot of political things happening where they're wrangling, you know, um, anti-trans, um, sentiment, um, for their own personal political, um, gain. And we haven't, this is not the first time in history that we've seen this, you know, um, like this kind of moral platform by American politicians.

[00:05:20] You saw this like in the forties after this kind of liberation of the thir twenties and thirties, like, you know, as the Great Depression was, you know, kicking in. Um, you know, groups again, you know, and they tend to be these Christian moral morality groups. Right. Um, and I'm just wondering, like, I know that, that this kind of evangel evangelism doesn't really exist the way it does in America.

[00:05:44] Um, but I know that there is some component growing in Australia, and I wonder if, if you find that, that to be kind of like the difference or, or maybe you can talk about the difference in, in what you feel in Australia versus the states. Yeah,

[00:05:59] Sasha: I [00:06:00] think it's just polarized and, and you guys have such a bigger community in such a bigger political stage, so it does get polarized at such a louder level.

[00:06:10] We do have elements of it here in Australia, sadly, and other parts of the world. Um, when I've traveled, Europe's amazing, like mm-hmm. Um, I've just been nothing but received beautifully there, um, in places like France and, and, um, but yeah, we do have quite large elements, especially here in my home state of Western Australia.

[00:06:35] I, um, often make jokes that we're generally two to three hours and 35 years behind the rest of the, the world in mindset and behaviors. But, um, but yeah, I think. Like touching on, like what you said with it's happened before in history. It has happened before in history and, [00:07:00] and sadly it was linked to, um, certain political parties in, in a German state that got banned and removed to be allowed to have a, a military even after their behavior.

[00:07:11] Mm-hmm. So, um, and we see that happening in your, um, mm-hmm. Red states at the moment where those, um, those racial groups are attaching themselves to the right wing and, and the Christians, um, extremists, um mm-hmm. Are really jumping on board. So it's hard to sort of, as an athlete, for me, it's hard to sort of make comment on politics because I'm not very educated on politics, but I, I do have an opinion.

[00:07:49] And, um, and I do have a firsthand experience from receiving a lot of, um, hate from that direction. Mm. So, mm-hmm. [00:08:00] Um, yeah. It's a real difficult one. It's scary what's going on over there. Yeah. I feel for some of the, the girls like me. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and the thing I always say to a lot of, of all women, I'm like, once they've come for, for us, trans women don't think they're gonna stop.

[00:08:19] Mm-hmm. For, mm-hmm. All women. Oh, absolutely. Um, well, it's, and that sort of next step's already started in, in some states such as Florida. Oh my God. Well, they're

[00:08:28] Tyler: trying to, you know, the, all these bills and legislation, you know, it's, it's really gonna become an intrusion on so many women's rights mm-hmm.

[00:08:39] Where you're gonna have to take tests to see if you are a woman or not, which is just super intrusive and super. Yep. Inappropriate. And, and, and God, like, I mean, how many of these right wingers are so creepy anyway, giving them another reason to be even more creepy

[00:08:57] Sasha: too? I, I know [00:09:00] it's sad, but Yeah. The,

[00:09:03] Tyler: the, the thing that, that always, it bothers me and disturbs me is how they have used this as a wedge issue to try to get, you know, straight.

[00:09:16] Women, you know, upset or up in arms about this and use it against more of left more progressive policies basically. You know, that's what's kind of crazy.

[00:09:28] Sasha: Ah, it is crazy. Sorry Karen, I jumped.

[00:09:32] Karen: No, no, no. I was just thinking about how, like, even before this conversation, I thought like, you know, you always get, you know, I did some searches and, and profiles on you, and I feel like everything I've read is basically asking you to be like the expert on the issues.

[00:09:51] And, and I was like, I don't wanna start that way. I wanna start by like knowing who you are. You know, like, I feel like that's the, the kind of like the [00:10:00] missing piece of this. Like nobody's trying to find out like, Who you are as a person, you know, beyond Yeah. An expert of this cause. And so I was like, I wanna start this interview by just asking you like, who are you, you know, what's your surf background?

[00:10:16] Like, you know, what was it like where you surfed and grew up and you know, just all those things. And, and of course I launch right into the US Aussie

[00:10:26] Sasha: Christian conservative

[00:10:27] Karen: and then, oh my god, I'm sorry, but

[00:10:30] Sasha: all good. All good. Well, I can sort of give you a bit of a background in me. I was born in Victoria, down on the east side, um, in a little hospital, Rosebud Hospital on the Mornington Peninsula in 78.

[00:10:45] Um, I was born to a single mother outta wedlock. Um, a lot of issues around that in the seventies. Mm-hmm. Same as, it was very much similar to the US if we were a very Christian country [00:11:00] in that point of time, our hospitals were ran by and funded by churches. Right. And, um, yeah, my mum at the time was very young.

[00:11:11] She was only 16 when she had me. Mm-hmm. And, um, I was sort of brought up by my grandparents and, um, until my mum found a partner about six years later. And, and then I was sort of thrust into that family, um, circle and then there was a lot of issues around that, as you can imagine with young, um, new parents.

[00:11:37] And, uh, we moved around a lot. We spent a bit of time on ski fields and, um, at about age eight or nine, I got, we moved back to the coast and I got right into surfing. And, um, and at that whole time, I, I knew that I was different and, um, and I was allowed to be [00:12:00] different with my grandparents. I was allowed to not be different is the, probably the, the word.

[00:12:04] I wasn't like other boys. Um, at that age I wasn't, and that was prevalent as I hit puberty too. I didn't hit puberty until my almost twenties. Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I got right into competitive surfing when I was about 10 or 11. I kind of just lived in the sand dunes where we lived. Um, I didn't spend much time at home.

[00:12:30] I wasn't part of that family unit as such. Um, and I never knew my real father and. Yeah. Sorry Tyler.

[00:12:41] Tyler: No, I was just gonna say, how did you, how did you get into surfing? Like how did you find it?

[00:12:47] Sasha: So basically the area I grew up in, um, was in Victoria and, and there was, we lived like 150 meters from this underground, [00:13:00] um, waterway that came out and carved into the limestone reef that got covered with sand and it broke like pipe.

[00:13:06] Um, wow. And it was, it's a wave that gets pretty crowded now, but at that point in time, there was one local shaper by the name of Mick Pierce who was our neighbor. And the other shaper was Phil Grace on the other side, who is a, they're both very famous, um, like prolific names outta the seventies, eighties and nineties in Victoria where Mick Pierce was, um, Michael Peterson's caddy at Bells when he won Bells.

[00:13:35] And, um, Phil Grace's, um, Was the shaper for, for B out of France and helped set up the factory, the Quicksilver factory. Wow. So very, very, um, prolific members. And, and they gave me the, my first surfboard and, and um, and I was best friends with, um, Mick Pierce's son, who was a couple of years younger and I was the same [00:14:00] age as his daughter.

[00:14:02] And, and yeah, we used to, me and Mark, the son would get on the, the school bus, which pulled up on this desolate country road out the front of everyone's, each person's house. 'cause the houses were about a kilometer away from each other. And, um, and. I would just hide in the bushes, let, let the bus pull up, and, and then it'd just drive off and, and then go surfing.

[00:14:32] So I kind of taught, taught myself to read and write in later life after school years. And, um, yeah, got into the, the board riders sort of was like a family. 'cause I built cubby houses and, and would just live in them. I wouldn't come home for days on end 'cause it wasn't much of a fun environment at home.

[00:14:54] And, um, and yeah, and then the, the board riders were like a group of guys by the time I was [00:15:00] 12, all these guys were 18, 19 and doing what 18, 19 year olds do. And, and I was this little, I looked about seven and um, I was this little blonde kid tagging along and, um, I. You know, by the time I was 13, 14, I could, I could beat, beat the grownups as such.

[00:15:22] Um, but I was tiny and that was sort of my first experience doing really well in state and national titles at about that age. And, and I was picked up, um, first Rip Curl sort of noticed me, but, um, Phil Grace's ties with Quicksilver, um, sort of cemented a, a, a sponsorship deal at very, very early teenagers years with Quicksilver.

[00:15:48] Wow. So I got to spend a fair bit of time with people like, um, Sean and Troy Brooks, who were from over the, the other side of the Bay, Western Port Bay. And [00:16:00] yeah, I was lucky being a goofy footer. There was a, a pretty prolific. Long, one of the best left-handers that in Victoria that I used to sneak through the army base to get to a lot that breaks on an eeb tide.

[00:16:14] And that was, um, I think that was the first video I ever featured him was Indo Express, um, made by a guy by the name of Red Eye, um, from the, the neighboring Board Riders Club, peninsula board Riders. And, and that's when I started hanging out with like ex tour, um, I wouldn't call failures, but they were, they fell off that eighties, that eighties party tour.

[00:16:41] A bit like guys like Gary Taylor and, and um, then there was the Watson Brothers, like Craig Watson, who's a pretty prolific shaper down there. And my, a good friend. And, um, yeah, I was always y a lot of years younger than these guys, but. We were [00:17:00] seen as the same age for some reason. Um, but yeah. And then at about 17 I discovered that um, you know, it was cool to go hitchhiking up the coast 'cause it was a lot warmer in Northern New South Wales.

[00:17:17] And, and yes, found myself living in Queensland with guys like China O'Connor and, and I Wow, the legendary China. Yes. And a lot China. Yeah. Spend a lot of time with Chiney Z and, um, him and I shared a place on Debar Hill for a long time and, um, yeah, he sort of taught me the, the art of switch footing. And I was just gonna ask, if you do any research on me, you can see I, a lot of people say they don't know which way I stand.

[00:17:48] I'm a goofy footer, but I skateboard natural the same as China. And um, and that's why I like on those. Point breaks, I can surf, forehand or backhand. [00:18:00] Um, so yeah, and, um, you know, I got to know the, the, I, I basically set up camp and lived until I was about, um, yeah, close to 30 and then went, moved on and I'd been traveling and competing on the QS and.

[00:18:19] The Australian championship tour before that in its infantry stage. 'cause pre 2000, the tour was just so fragmented. Um, as you know, like you guys had the N s A and, and we had the, um, a C C and Yes. And Europe, just god knows what. Europe was just broken to bids. So, and segueing to today, like I think with what the A s P and now the W S L have done, um, with putting the tears in and, and with like, um, giving the, the whole surfing some structure.[00:19:00]

[00:19:00] Um, and, and I think it's been an amazing thing, like being witness firsthand, witness to see how hard it was back then. Mm-hmm. With like, Not being able to surf, like through a, a regional tour, a championship, um, qualifier, then to a tour as such, um, you know, is pretty harder. I remember as a pro junior watching a very close army winner world title and going, you just make, and she made no money.

[00:19:36] Pauline Mensa made no money, didn't even get a, get a prize check for being the women's world champion in 93. And yeah. And then left the tour and was just a bus driver for the kids. Mm-hmm. Uh, back at Brunswick Heads. And you go surfing with Pauline now these days, and. [00:20:00]She's, she's the best, one of the best surfers out of the past on any given day.

[00:20:04] Mm-hmm. Right.

[00:20:06] Tyler: She's, she, she was a phenomenal surfer then and still now, I would imagine. And God, like she had to battle like rheumatoid arthritis and to win that title and still does. Yeah. Really

[00:20:19] Sasha: heavy sounds. Ling I'm really lucky. I've become quite good friends with Pauline and her, her partner Sam and, and, um, hi Pauline out there.

[00:20:30] Well done. She just finished second in, in her first proper long board event against actual pros. I was like, yeah, girl. Go at the Kiera Classic. So, um, incredible. You might've heard about the Kiera Classic. Yes. Um, did it make news over there because it was pretty funny. What

[00:20:48] Tyler: happened? Oh my God. It, it was just so amazing.

[00:20:53] What, what, um, what they did. I mean, it's. It's pretty, pretty amazing, [00:21:00] uh, where they had the open division and then all the women basically, you know, took over. It was so rad.

[00:21:09] Sasha: And it's so, it was so funny because like Sean McKeown's done a lot for longboarding in the past, but he, yeah, he said some pretty cool, pretty rad, um, misogynistic, chauvinistic, um, poor things over the years and, and being very poor and even pr prior to that happening.

[00:21:30] He said some pretty gross things about women surfing, um, that were highlighted in the press and, and I think how the girls held themselves and, um, hats. Hats off to the saltwater. Um, and Lucy, I can't even Lucy, remember Lucy's, um, Lucy Candle? Lucy? Yeah. What she God? Saltwater Pilgrim. Saltwater pilgrim. Yeah.

[00:21:56] The saltwater pilgrim. Yeah. She's amazing. Lucy's such a, [00:22:00] an amazing human. And what she stands for is just so, mm-hmm. So spoken, so beautiful spoken. Yeah. And, um, and yeah, she just always talks from the heart and always, you know, she held herself so well in, in so many, um, so many ways throughout that because, um, I personally know the sponsor that sponsored that put the money up, and, and he hasn't said the nicest thing about women's or trans women in the past or myself.

[00:22:32] Um, and, and yeah, he, him and Sean together is a bit of a, a very. Force, I guess, for pro men's division pushing anti women's inclusion. Mm-hmm. Um, so for when it happened, I was just like sitting in the background, just like little like, go girls. Well

[00:22:59] Karen: actually, [00:23:00] um, that's, uh, I wanna know like the transition. So, you know, when, like when did you come out as a, you know, long boarder?

[00:23:08] Yeah. As a long boarder? No, as a long

[00:23:11] Sasha: boarder.

[00:23:11] Tyler: I was gonna say, you know, professional. I was gonna be my question actually. Like when did you transition to longboarding and was there a lot of stigma to it?

[00:23:24] Karen: I'll start with the long

[00:23:25] Sasha: serious question. Yes. Let's go early two thousands. It was a dead flat day. Um, I'd made friends with a, a young kid about my age that I'd been partying with. In a nightclub. And none beknownst to me. His stepfather was Wayne Dean and oh my gosh, his name was lucky. His name was Luke Dean.

[00:23:49] And, and, um, and he's like, Hey, let's go surfing. And I've looked at Debar and at that time I was into, you know, sharing a house with [00:24:00] Chiney Z and, and having some, you know, we were just punting hes, and trying to be stupid. And, um, and he's like, nah, like it's, it's pumping on the, on the south wall. Look at the bar.

[00:24:13] It's, it's one foot and we're both goofy footers. And I'm like, you can't surf that. And, um, and out he pulls out a couple of logs and, and off we go. And, and then I got introduced to the, the legend himself, Wayne Dean through Wow. Through his son. And, um, and was exposed to that. I. Um, without even knowing. And, um, that's sort of how it started.

[00:24:39] And, um, yeah, I'd, I'd had a little tickle because Gracie rides long boards and I'd ridden long boards here and there, but I'd never even thought about it. I'd never, you know, I'd ridden them, but it was just for, you know, like when it was one foot and then I just got [00:25:00] addicted. I, I, um, I was shown the art at its truest form mm-hmm.

[00:25:05] By, by a purist. Mm-hmm. As such. Um, and that's where I do take my hat off to, to Joel. He, he talks about that sort of experience that he got taught by the great uncles in his era, from his land. Mm-hmm. Like the tacky YaaS and whatnot. And, and I was exposed to that. Um, here by our purist, um, Deanie and, and guys like him.

[00:25:32] And, and he would have, you know, the, the greats come and stay with him. And, and we'd be exposed to that, um, when, you know, they had the, the big event that had run on Snapper every year. Mm-hmm. And, and yeah. So that was amazing. And then secondly, how did I transition? Well,

[00:25:53] Karen: it's more like a cross stepping,

[00:25:58] Sasha: I definitely [00:26:00] never shuffled. Oh, goodness.

[00:26:04] Tyler: Amen.

[00:26:06] Sasha: Yeah. I, I shuffle And that's something when I listen to like, um, I listen to the podcast and, um, all the. The, um, you know, the, um, I had actually had the W ss l on just before clicking on this, and yeah. And I listened to the commentators that do the shortboarding and, and hats off to Chris Cote.

[00:26:28] He's such a, a gentleman and a human. And I've, yeah, I've chatted to Chris a few times. He, I follow him along and he follows along on Instagram, my story and. He's friends of friends obviously through, I've got a lot of contacts and friends outta Malibu and, and he's the one commentator I always go, I'm glad Chris is commentating.

[00:26:49] 'cause he, he always, he never calls it shuffling when someone does a beautiful cross step. And, and I think that was the, the biggest thing. And I know Joel loses his [00:27:00] mind, um, when he hears it. Um, and he does very vocally, um, let everyone know. And that's, that's Joel and I love that. Yeah. Um, but I'd love to see, I'd love to see the W S L give someone like worm a, a shot in that.

[00:27:18] Oh yeah. Um, that booth, you know, like Worm's, another good friend of mine and, and she's such an, she in my opinion, one of the best female loggers to come out of. Absolutely. Um, Out of her, her, her era in that, um, you know, there's so many outta Malibu, I can't even name them, but No,

[00:27:41] Karen: it's, her style is, is such a standout.

[00:27:44] She, it's so unique. She's really

[00:27:46] Sasha: wonderful. And she's another one you can't tell whether she's good for or natural, like mm-hmm. Um, I remember when I really started to sort of think I was good at longboarding and then I came across some of her videos [00:28:00] and I, oh, I'm such a kook. I'm like, damn. I'm like, oh, I thought I could hang the tan.

[00:28:09] No, she's doing a switch and perfect. And, and getting tubed.

[00:28:18] So, yeah. But, um, but yeah, it's, it's been a bit of a journey for me. Both, both in life and longboarding, and I think surfing's helped. Mm-hmm. I'd be stupid to say that it hasn't. And the, the characters I've met along the way,

[00:28:36] Tyler: and we will be right back and now back to

[00:28:40] Sasha: our show.

[00:28:42] Karen: So when this kind of thing blew up and all of a sudden you are at the apex of this media frenzy, um, what was that like?

[00:28:52] And what was, I mean, it must have been kind of a shock. Like one day, you know, you're just surfing and the next day you're, you're the [00:29:00] champion of this, that, and the other. And also the, the kind of target of all this other kind of vitriol. So, um, I just wondered what that moment was like and since, you know,

[00:29:13] Sasha: yeah, it's been, it's been a really like back and forth for me, like emotionally and, and mentally.

[00:29:23] Because for one, like I've never known someone to win the Western Australian state titles and get so much Yes. Media. Um, I was like, oh my God, I'm just, I'm just the girl from Mandra God

[00:29:41] Tyler: answer to that contest. Got a lot of value.

[00:29:44] Sasha: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:29:48] Karen: But yeah,

[00:29:48] Sasha: it's, it was, I think it was overdue that it happened.

[00:29:53] Um, and when I say that I, like, for me, I tried to transition when I was [00:30:00] 21. Mm-hmm. And, um, and the thing that stopped me was, you know, uh, I was knocking on the door of top 80 q s at the time and. I had a, a psychologist that I had to sit with to get allowed to progress, sit there and go, what are you gonna do?

[00:30:19] Become a sex worker? Geez. So this was in the early nineties? Yeah, that was late nineties. Yeah. Mid to late nineties. Mm-hmm. Excuse me. I'm

[00:30:33] Karen: sorry. I had to go through that. It's

[00:30:35] Sasha: awful. There's some, yeah. So geek, serious geek, right? Like that's what I heard. Yeah. And, and then further on when I tried another 10 years later, like I was, um, I was told that, uh, you know, like we've, we've allowed enough in this year was the, the comment by the next psychologist.

[00:30:57] And, and I was just like,

[00:30:59] oh

[00:30:59] Karen: god, [00:31:00] wow. What is this? A golf

[00:31:01] Sasha: club club? Like what the hell? Yeah, exactly. And, um, unbelievable. Yeah. So I. I've always carried that with me. Um, that's been part of my trauma or added on to the trauma as such. So moving forward to decide to do it was such a big thing, especially at, at age 40.

[00:31:26] Um, yeah, and I, and I was like, and then, and, and I decided to do it because it was, I'd just finished up competing and, and I'd had a few good, like, um, results on the qss and, and made a round or two when the tour was open. Um, and, and then I was just like, you know what? Like, I'm done. I'm done with competing.

[00:31:53] I'm done with even surfing. And, um, and started a conversation with Surfing Australia just to [00:32:00] put in a, a, um, a policy for. For community inclusion, um mm-hmm. Like at a club level and not even have, you know, like I, I didn't even, I, I, for well knew that what the, the reaction could be if a trans girl would compete.

[00:32:20] Just because I knew. How the, the surf media in general were towards just cis women know. Excuse me, when

[00:32:28] Karen: was this? When did

[00:32:29] Sasha: you do this? So this would've been 20, 21. Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh, early 2021. Right? Yeah. Like, um, and I started this conversation with Surfing Australia and, and they were like, yeah, you've made some really valid points.

[00:32:46] Let's, let's be progressive and let's, let's put some, um, policies in place. And they were the first to put a, a policy for, um, community. Mm-hmm. Um, inclusion [00:33:00] in for diverse people. And they covered everything. Beautiful. They covered trans men. Mm-hmm. They covered non-binary. Mm-hmm. And it was, it was so beautiful.

[00:33:08] They covered for coaches and, and they put in and off the back of that, they started putting in a, 'cause they. They sat down and they recognized that there was an issue and there was a problem of, um, misogyny and ex and, and male projection upon women across the board. And they also put in a, a, um, complaint system in where it got done and dealt with by a third party mms.

[00:33:38] Amazing. Which was like, how, how did they,

[00:33:41] Tyler: how did they craft this? I'm, I'm curious because it's,

[00:33:45] Sasha: they got lawyers in, it's in

[00:33:48] Tyler: good. I mean, it's incredible. Like, it's absolutely incredible the, you know, that they would go this far, you know, especially with surfing in the past, like it's not the surfing world [00:34:00] and a s p and all of that have really been kind of regressive in so many ways.

[00:34:05] So it's,

[00:34:05] Sasha: it was a real. Sorry, you go, Karen. No, I

[00:34:09] Karen: was just gonna say, uh, you know, can I, um, I don't know if this is the case, but I was, I was in Australia in 2021, you know, at the height of the pandemic. I had to do the, the whole quarantine thing and everything. And what it felt like when I got in the country was like they, there was this real internalization of, or coming to terms with like, even what was happening in the states.

[00:34:32] Like it resonated so loudly. Even in Yeah, I mean, in so many countries, but I, I, it felt palpable in Australia, you know, this kind of like toxic environment of. Of the orange guy, I cannot say his name. And, um, and then like all the ensuing kind of protests and then this big reckoning with the B l M movement and a lot of conversations and, um, like this consciousness aware, uh, consciousness raising, [00:35:00] uh, awareness, kind of, it felt like it kind of spread across the world and a lot of countries and people kind of like really started to ask the hard questions of like, well, how do we do this?

[00:35:13] How do we like, repeat this in our own country? And it, and it really felt like Australia really took it, um, to the next level. You know, even, even the acknowledgement of indigenous lands and in the language and the institutions. And it felt like in that environment, like, People and institutions were trying to do the right thing in Australia.

[00:35:33] And then in America we have, we had that on one level, but then we also had this huge backlash. Um, but I wonder if, if that was maybe something that, that felt like that was part of the reason why there was an openness maybe where there might not have been before.

[00:35:50] Sasha: Yeah, no, you're spot on. Like, um, politically in Australia, like we did a, we did a handstand and, and like [00:36:00] handstand walk down the, the freeway as such Mm.

[00:36:02] That was locked down with no one on it politically. Mm-hmm. And um, you know, you're right. Like we went from, um, not even acknowledging our, our forefathers country, our true owners of this, this land, our indigenous speaking culture to now when you, you fly around our country, Um, it's up on the, it says you're going to, to boon country.

[00:36:32] Mm-hmm. Right? Um, and then it says the, the, the city you're going to, um Right, right. And, and so forth that there was a lot of recognization across the board of, of so many levels. And, and I think that really polarized with the surfing. Like, um, the conversation that I started with Surfing Australia for trans, um, inclusion triggered them.

[00:36:58] To have so many more [00:37:00] conversations and so many more things got put in place. And not trying to take any, um, recognition for that, but it, it was just a con, I just started a conversation with them. I called them up on sitting at a, you can claim it a mind,

[00:37:15] Karen: you can totally claim it,

[00:37:19] Sasha: but I don't, and you should because I didn't do the, I didn't do the hard work.

[00:37:22] You know what I mean? That was the ball. Yeah. But it takes,

[00:37:25] Karen: it takes one conversation. It takes one person, one voice, like every, you know, every voice counts. It really does. And I think, you know, you, your place in that community, like if you hadn't spoken up, like who, who's gonna actually take that first step and like, you know, It might not have been something that you're like, oh, this is my my charge, I'm gonna do this.

[00:37:49] But you did speak up, you know, with everything that you've lived through, with every reason not to have to put yourself forward. You did. And I think that's worth a [00:38:00] big claim. You know, everyone did their part ultimately.

[00:38:04] Exactly.

[00:38:04] Sasha: And everyone did do their part. Like hats off to the c e o, Chris Matter and, and his team of board of directors with, um, lane Beachley sitting at the chair, you know?

[00:38:16] Mm, mm-hmm. Um, surfing Australia and Surfing Australia works quite independently. Um, it's really funny 'cause each state that's a surfing state, Queensland, new South Wales, Victoria, Tasmania, south Australia and Western Australia, we all have separate legislation and we all work independently to become one.

[00:38:39] Country within the Commonwealth. So how the surfing works is Surfing Australia is like an overseeing, um, they're governed by the I s A and then each state is then governed by Surfing Australia and I s a. So they, I sort of, I guess I did, I played my [00:39:00] political smarts as such. I didn't go to Surfing wa um mm-hmm.

[00:39:04] Who I was at the time, a current state champion with, in a, in a men's division. And I just rang straight up Surfing Australia. I went to their boss. Yes. Yes. Because I, I knew that it'd just be, um, and it'd just get swept under a mm-hmm. A carpet because, you know, like, They've got so many more things on their plate.

[00:39:32] They were dealing with a pandemic. They were dealing with trying to run, I think two or three wa s o tour events. Um, yeah. 'cause we were a bit of a haven in wa 'cause we'd had zero cases of covid and we'd closed our border borders. 'cause the closest city from our border is 2000 kilometers. And we could fly around our state, drive around our state, and we weren't locked in.

[00:39:59] [00:40:00] We were locked in this, you know, something the size of half of your country. So, um, it was, it was kind of sad, but cool. Um, but yeah, our, our surfing Western Australia, they had a big job on their hands. And the last thing they wanted to hear was, you know, was a a, um, the last thing one of the guys wanted to hear was, God, this this crazy, crazy person that's come out cross-dressing on Instagram is calling me.

[00:40:31] Oh my goodness. So, yeah, and, and that's sort of how, you know, sadly, um, sat going back to being three hours and 35 years behind you guys and the Eastern States. They would've been looking at it on the phone. So, um, it, so yeah, it, um,

[00:40:55] Tyler: it's, it's really interesting though, like I, we, we had a [00:41:00] conversation with the Lucy Small and she was telling me that the way they rolled out the policy was really engaging and that they really, uh, tried to educate everyone.

[00:41:13] And I was hoping you can speak to that a little bit. Like what were the steps that they took to educate and engage the other, uh, competitive surfers about the policy?

[00:41:24] Sasha: Yeah, so basically they, they rolled out a, a little, um, Instagram reel basically, and a as such, and it, and it, like the pamphlet that was, that came with it, that was a P D F too, and um, was just amazing.

[00:41:43] It, it had all the language, right. Um, they'd really done their homework and, you know, there was some backlash comments from a certain person in Australia that just jumped on a bad wagon and made tos after Bethany's thing. And, [00:42:00] and it was just pure, you know, it's been proven to just be pure lies what she said.

[00:42:04] But, um, oh, geez. But on the contrary to that, I only mentioned that because everything she said was actually that, you know, was just bullshit because she, because they did, they rolled it out so positively. They, um, they spoke about, um, that's so cool. Yeah. Not just trans women. They spoke about trans men and non-binary.

[00:42:28] Mm-hmm. Um, and the policies, actually, the wording of the policy is just, um, it's called in the policy of inclusion for people with gender diversity. Um, and that's the heading and that's it. So straight away when you read that, you, you're already putting into a mindset of, of Oh, you know, whereas if, um, you know, if it's like a policy around the inclusion of trans women in women's sport straight away with what we [00:43:00] get in the polarized, um, media, you just say, ah, fuck, here we go again.

[00:43:05] Excuse my language. Um, but yeah. Um, so they, they really did their homework. They set it up right. Um, they. They worked, they've, they've got a great team. Surfing Australia has a high performance center with sports psychologists. Um, and they did, I know they worked with a bunch of lawyers behind it to get, um, the, the Fair act, um, like a, an actual mm-hmm.

[00:43:33] Um, law of inclusion within sport, um, to put in place. And that's, that's amazing. I loved listening to when you guys spoke to Lucy, 'cause Lucy's done so much work with, um, in the background in politics in in Sydney at a grassroots level, starting at local politics, um, and getting those, those acts and, um, those [00:44:00] inclusion and fair pay, um, made legal in New South Wales and we're really pushing hard for the government to say, To put it into place.

[00:44:09] Um, she's actually got it to, to a point now where if a sporting organization gets a grant from the government, which a lot of them do mm-hmm. On a regular, in, in, I know that happens globally with governments. They, they give a, a local sporting club, whether it be football, soccer, um, grid iron or, or hockey or whatever it be.

[00:44:35] And, um, Grid iron and then that money or, yeah, we have that here. That is grid

[00:44:42] Karen: iron.

[00:44:43] Sasha: Isn't that like your football? Football, yeah, football. That's what we Oh, okay. I screw up. That's what we called your football. Yes. Grid iron. Oh, that's

[00:44:53] Karen: hilarious. Grid iron. I've never heard that. I'm gonna have to learn That didn't.

[00:44:56] Oh my gosh. No, no, no. I was like, is this something [00:45:00] everybody knows? I just don't know. I'm like, what is grid eye?

[00:45:03] Sasha: It was so funny. 'cause like I just off the cuff, my A D H D I was driving down the road yesterday and I saw a lacrosse game going on my, I just watched it and I was like, and these people come up and go, what are you doing?

[00:45:17] No one normally watches us. And I was like, I've only, I've only seen this game played on Twilight.

[00:45:25] Karen: Oh my God. Well, the women's Australian teams are always really good. But it doesn't seem like prevalent in the, in the, you know, in the nation National

[00:45:36] Sasha: awareness. Yeah. I, I, and it was, it was a university that was, um, it was two university teams that were playing and they were, they played lacrosse that my sport growing up.

[00:45:45] I,

[00:45:46] Tyler: I, um, I wanted to, to then like juxtapose that rollout that they did with the WSLS rollout of the policy earlier this year. And I, I was curious like how you thought they [00:46:00] did, uh, with that rollout and, and were, did they even reach out to you or do you know if they reached out to, you know, surfing Australia for guidance on this?

[00:46:11] Because it felt

[00:46:12] Sasha: a hundred percent and I personally need to be careful what I say. Yeah, of course. 'cause I am a W S L competitor. Um, I did get reached out to, I was spoken to. Um, and a lot of safety, a lot of support. Mm. Ah, that's great. Um, I've gotta give the W s l kudos in response to mm-hmm. They put in, um, they put some resources in place Nice.

[00:46:40] And, and continue to put it in place, um, in a round for their people that were running the events and myself Mm. Um, to make sure I was okay. And anyone that was running the event or in the event was okay. [00:47:00] Mm-hmm. Um, and I did have conversations with some key stakeholders within the W S L. Mm-hmm. And, um, and they, those comments and, and, um, conversations were very, um, they were very important and it was more so just, um, To get it clear to me what the standard would be.

[00:47:28] Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, that was, and that was made very clear. I think personally, the ball was dropped a little bit on how they rolled it out to the greater public. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, and that was really highlighted by that. Um, you know, I, I'm gonna go out and say it and people hate me for saying it. Who, how can you boycott something that you don't go in or you [00:48:00] haven't qualified for?

[00:48:02] You've had a few, and I, and I'm not gonna be real, and I know this sounds terrible because she's an amazing athlete. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and I, and sadly has views. That I don't agree with, but I'm, I'm an adult and, and I can sit in a room with people that don't agree with me and mm-hmm. And be fine with that.

[00:48:23] But, um, honey, you, you haven't even qualified. Like, so how can you boycott it? You got, yeah, you surfed in pipe last year, but that was gifted to you in a wild card. Mm-hmm. So I, it really confused me and I was really complexed by, by that statement, and I, and so many, um, mainstream media outlets jumped on board with that nut.

[00:48:53] And, and that was my biggest thing. I was just like, and sorry, that sounds so terrible of me. I hate to sort of [00:49:00] project that as a, as a No, I

[00:49:01] Karen: mean, I'm sorry. It's deserved. I, I have to admit I can't watch things like that when they happen. And so I hadn't, and then I watched it right before this interview, and it's unbelievable.

[00:49:15] I'm still so angry under, under, you know, uh, I just, I cannot believe that this got traction. And what makes me even more angry are the people who supported her. Yeah. Like the Carissa's, even the Melo Fest, um, Lyle Carlson, you know, Rochelle Ballard. It, it was just like, you know, photographers, other big wave surfers.

[00:49:38] I just was, I, I'm like, I can't believe it. And it, it's, it's not just her stance, it's the way she kind of approached the whole thing. Like, oh, I'm just trying to be nice. And, you know, it sucks when everyone tries to silence you and you're like, you are being silenced. Like you are the victim in [00:50:00] this. Are you effing kidding me?

[00:50:02] You know? And then I know even how she signs off, like, you know, um, I, I just wanna come from a place of grace and I don't want hate and I don't wanna be angry. And I'm the one, I'm the target of all this stuff. And, and she can't even speak what she wants to say. She's like, like reading off a thing and just like, you know,

[00:50:21] Sasha: I was a hundred percent coach.

[00:50:22] And I'm like, what? She was so coached on What, why are you even doing this? Like, that was scripted. Yeah.

[00:50:27] Karen: Like it, and, and it's just, you know, the, the whole stance of it that she's the one who's the victim in this is unbelievable. And also just knowing that. Oh, and also the things that she's making up. You know, the majority of people agree with me.

[00:50:43] What, what majority did you do? A poll? Like what are you talking about? Like, she's just making shit up and Yeah. The idea that like, she's the one who's being nice and everyone's targeting hate at her, not understanding the history of, you know, trans [00:51:00] people in this, in, in America. And, you know, I also have a real problem with, with so much of the surf world and where a lot of the, the culture exists in whether in Hawaii or California, and.

[00:51:15] You know, I'm not a, I I, I had like a strong kind of, um, evangelical Christian component in my upbringing, not from my parents directly, but from other family members. And it was a really intense, uh, part of my childhood. And it, and it continues to be, you know, I'm queer and my family is just bible thumping, like on my dad's side.

[00:51:35] And it's just like, I'm just like, okay, goodbye. You know, I don't need you in my life. Um, but I, I just have a, a real problem with, you know, these Christians who, um, there's so many other platforms that they can, you know, kind of lead that do good in the world and instead, you know, without any sense of compassion [00:52:00] of knowing, of like, trying to understand more about like anything.

[00:52:05] It's just like you guys are falling for it. You, it's like the history of Christianity, the history of like, you know, colonialism in Hawaii through the missionaries, like all this stuff. And it's just, to me it's very clearly in that vein, you know, and this ignorance that, that Christianity allows. And, you know, I, I have really some great Christians in my family too, and I know like a lot of good that it's done, but like, it's really hard for me to see this culture in America that is so kind of, you know, bible thumping based, um, hatred.

[00:52:42] Exactly. Yeah.

[00:52:44] Sasha: And to like, to add to that, like, um, just to like touch on the whole, and I don't like to like bash religion and, um, and the reason I sort of just make this comment is, um, I traveled to Indonesia last year [00:53:00] and went to a heavily Muslim area and. Like where you can hear calling for prayer three to four times a day.

[00:53:08] And, um, I met some beautiful Muslim men that were just like, you're a beautiful woman. And accepted me and understood and spoke to me on a daily basis. Come and film me surfing, made surf videos for me. Were just like, come back and visit, come and come and meet my family. Come and, and it brought me into their inner circle.

[00:53:28] So I believe it's not, it's just the extremist. Mm-hmm. You know, the extremists Absolutely. That are bad, that are not good. So like she just came from such an extreme view, point of view. Mm-hmm. That was just so poor. And so, yeah. So I was very disappointed. And like you said, I was so disappointed that, um, The people that actually jumped on board.

[00:53:52] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It,

[00:53:54] Tyler: it appeared the way that, that it appeared was, and, uh, you [00:54:00] know, in the media and, and on social media, in the comments, it, it appeared that they didn't, the W s L had not had discussions with the athletes at all about this. That was part of the accusation.

[00:54:11] Sasha: Oh, they'd had, they'd had conversations.

[00:54:13] They did. Yes. I know that for a fact, and I can't out where I got that from. Oh. Um, but so yeah, there was definitely, um, conversations, um, held, um, while around the pipe event. Yeah. Um, that this was happening. And, and there was, um, and it definitely, there was a lot of closed door conversations. Um, that went down.

[00:54:45] I got feedback on some pretty crazy closed doors, conversations of, of ath what athletes, um, were supportive of and, and unsupportive of and you know, and oh my God, I'd love to

[00:54:58] Karen: know. [00:55:00]

[00:55:01] Sasha: Wants

[00:55:01] Tyler: to know. You can save that for after, I guess, because we don't wanna, you

[00:55:06] Sasha: know, but Yeah. And I think, I think too, like, um, I think too, like the surf world, you look at the history of, of the a s P and the surf world and, and like you look at the things, and this is I think why a lot of those women athletes, um, that, that are queer had some issues, um, because they got so much backlash mm-hmm.

[00:55:36] For being queer and coming out as queer. Mm-hmm. Um, and it, and it wasn't so long ago, it's only just been a recent off the back of, of athletes like Tyler Wright, like mm-hmm. Putting the progress flag on her shoulder and, and standing Oh goodness. So proud and, and traveling so beautiful with her wife.

[00:55:54] Mm-hmm. And, and you know, and, and I know for a fact, like [00:56:00] even, um, and I know I can talk about, I know I'm not talking outta school about this 'cause I've witnessed it on the, on the, um, the cast and the commentary, like just over this year, like at the start of the year, them talking about Tyler and they would use the term, oh, Tyler's partner.

[00:56:21] Mm-hmm. And um, and then the next thing, well wife now. Yeah. Well, and at that point was wife. Mm-hmm. And um, and then at the next event they actually said, wife and I was like, someone must have got us talking to, you know, and, and I think baby steps, you know, like, and I think with that happening and, and you know, the complexity of it with like, yeah, I, come on, I come out, I, I went and won that event and then I went on to win another event, the Whalebone Classic, um, [00:57:00] which used to be a A A W Ss L event.

[00:57:03] Um, and then, you know, then finishing fourth in the Australian titles this time last year, I think the world just went and they were always gonna go stupid over it. Um, and I think it's does calm down, it has calmed down a little bit. Um, but yeah, and that's kind of, um, it had to be done. And I think much like, and I kind of always reflect on it, like with what the, like I said, with the backlash and the flack that the, the queer men and the, or the queer men cop now and the queer women cop through the, the early two thousands and the mm-hmm.

[00:57:45] They didn't even come out in the nineties, right? Mm-hmm. Um, you know, you talk to the women that were on tour in the nineties and they're like, yeah, well, we just couldn't, like, sponsors would drop us, right? Mm-hmm. I was just like, far out. Yeah. Like, you can't [00:58:00] even be yourself. Um, yeah,

[00:58:02] Karen: I mean, I, I feel like even straight women with short hair, like, you know, there are so many demands of, of women holding the, the status quo of quote, femininity, fem femininity as defined by a hundred percent you in relation to cisgendered white

[00:58:17] Sasha: men.

[00:58:19] Yeah. And I, I see that firsthand like, I had sponsors up until I came out, and I, I have very, very minimal sponsors now. Mm. Um, I get helped out with a bit of freaky, um, here and there. Mm-hmm. Very sparsely. Um, but the, the companies that do help me out are women owned. Mm. And, um, and ran and managed and, and they're, they're true.

[00:58:46] You know, they're true in what they believe in. And um, and those companies are like atmosphere. If you don't mind me dropping their name No. Please. Atmosphere. That's wonderful. We

[00:58:54] Karen: wanna support them because

[00:58:56] Sasha: you know Yeah. Atmosphere. Wetsuits out Byron Bay. You can get them [00:59:00]online. They're great. They're an amazing, yeah.

[00:59:03] They're. They're a beautiful, beautiful cut. They're beautiful, yeah. Suit. And then, then my swimwear that I wear comes from a company out of, um, their headquarters are in Bali called Zealous. They're a German, German woman, Maria. Both the women that own the companies are both Maria, Maria from Byron and Maria from Germany.

[00:59:23] Um, yes. And I, I make jokes with my flatmate. She goes, do you collect Maria's?

[00:59:34] Do, uh,

[00:59:36] Tyler: and we will be right back and now back to our show. Do you think though, that I, I, I, I feel like I have to ask like, 'cause you know, like, do you think that having the discussion of whether trans athletes should be. Should be, uh, able to compete in certain sports, should be, should that be had at all, [01:00:00] or should, should people be shut down?

[01:00:02] You know, like that's, I guess like, 'cause Bethany, I don't, I don't, I don't subscribe to her beliefs. I didn't like how she, the way she came out, I don't like what she said. Uh, but a lot of people, you know, that do question, it can face backlash as well. And I'm wondering like, should we be having that discussion?

[01:00:26] Should they be having that, that conversation at least and, and at least trying to understand each other. I feel like the polarization and the, the visceral reaction from, from both sides, to be honest. Mm-hmm. I feel like it doesn't create good discourse, you know? Um, that's, that's what my, partly my concern is sometimes is when there's the visceral reaction on, on both sides where it, it, it kind of clouds the opportunity to find common ground on on those, on those issues.

[01:00:59] On these [01:01:00] issues.

[01:01:00] Sasha: Yeah, it's a good point. Tyler. I believe it shouldn't be, are they, should they be included or are they allowed to compete? It should be more coming from the point of view of at what level. Mm-hmm. Um, is this competition at, is it a community-based inclusion or is it an elite? Um, I'm gonna start off talking about, um, what 98% of the world can do, and that's at a community level to start with.

[01:01:34] And um, I believe it should just be straight up. We are women. We are all women. And, and like a trans man is a man. Um, and it's just play on, like, there's no conversation. Mm-hmm. Um, it's when you start to, um, talk about elite sports [01:02:00] and, and like, and this is where the conversation always leads to, and I think, and this is my belief and from my lived experience, um, and like we said earlier, I'm not an expert.

[01:02:14] I've just lived my course of being on hormone replacement therapy for close to three years now. Um, and, and I believe that's a time waiting period from the start of H R T to your, um, Event like your, the, when you go in your event as an elite athlete, um, because it's a very small percentage that will compete at the elite level in, in any gender.

[01:02:47] Yeah. Like regardless, it's such a small polarized, it's, it's, for me, I was just, I'm bog like, my mind just explodes every time. I'm like, so much conversation [01:03:00] went down for such a little amount of the community. I was just like, where, where is the balance all in on you guys? Yeah. And, and it, and that's where I like to sort of redirect that question is like, it's not, are they, it's when, when they, you know what I mean, right?

[01:03:23] Mm-hmm. Um, are they allowed? No. When are they allowed? Is, and, and then the second thing I always make is the, the point I like to make is like, well, have you done your homework on this? Have you got any understanding of H R T and how it works mm-hmm. And what it does to your body and, and what whatnot. And a and a prime example of that is like I see a stretch coach that's a sports massage therapist on a, on a regular basis that's getting my, I tore a hamstring and I'm rehabbing that as well as I want to be able to do the splits because I want to be able to [01:04:00] hang 10 in the tube in full squat like worm does.

[01:04:06] And yeah. And, um, and there's, and I'm trying to lose a little bit here so I can fit into that dress for this upcoming event that's coming up in October. But, um, basically. She was massaging me the other day and, and she was just, she, she hasn't got a full understanding of it unless you really research it.

[01:04:32] And even a lot of gps don't have a full understanding of it unless they spend a lot of time, um, even endocrinologists who are meant to be experts in blood work, a lot of them don't even understand it. It's. Luckily we have a, some specialists here in Australia that have just straight up specialized in it, and some doctors in the US have too.

[01:04:56] And they, they're called gender clinics where they go and they work [01:05:00] with not just trans women and trans men. They work with post menopause and mm-hmm. Um, perimenopause women as well. Mm-hmm. To help them and, and they fully get the spectrum mm-hmm. Yeah. Of, of what hormones can do and what the effects do.

[01:05:16] And the reason I bring up this sports massage therapist lady, she was, she's massaging my back and I've got some, you know, some terrible back, um, knots as us surfers do from having, when we arch and we're looking, oh, here comes a set, and we hold that, that lower back, just cramped like that for hours on end while we paddle against currents.

[01:05:39] And, and she just said, uh, She goes, Anna, she goes, you got an amazing feminine back with like, she goes, she goes, I, I massage. Um, a f l She, she does a lot of work with a f l football players that are, they're like, they run, you know, if you've [01:06:00] ever watched a, a midfielder playing a f l, like they run for two hours straight.

[01:06:04] Mm-hmm. And they, they're sprinting, it's like a sprinter watching a sprinter not do 10 seconds, but they do two hours. And, um, and, and that's what she said. She goes, she goes, you can tell the difference between, and she does a lot of, um, Like women athletes as well. Mm-hmm. In the, she works on a lot of the hockey players that play in the women's hockey national team and, and state team.

[01:06:30] And she was like, I can tell the difference between a women's muscle fiber and a men's muscle fiber. And she goes, and, and I sort of went quiet. I was like, oh no, like what she leading to here? And she must have noticed, and she goes, by the way, you've got an amazingly feminine muscle fiber, like there's not a single ounce of, of masculinity within your, your muscle fiber.

[01:06:55] And I was like, oh, that's a relief because like, [01:07:00] I, I already know this, but yeah. I was like, what if, you know, what if she's gonna say something and mm-hmm. And I was like, and yeah. Oh no. So there is, That like, um, that that's the effect hormones have. Mm-hmm. Do

[01:07:19] Tyler: you, do you think, um, there is any advantage, uh, the male body has an advantage over the female body when it comes to surfing?

[01:07:30] I, I personally question this. I, I suspect maybe not so much because I just, I have a theory that women, I think women could be just as good if not better than the best men in the world. I personally believe a hundred percent eventually. Mm-hmm. And I just think it's the fact that women have been marginalized in surfing for so long and it's been pooling from such a small talent pool and it's been so under-resourced mm-hmm.

[01:07:57] That women have never been given a fair [01:08:00] shake properly to develop, uh, the skill sets that many men have been given the opportunities. In the past. Oh, a hundred

[01:08:08] Sasha: percent. And you just, like, everyone's complaining about the mid-year cut at the short boards. Yeah. At the moment, right? Mm-hmm. So us women in shortboarding don't even get to start with the amount of men that get cut to.

[01:08:22] Exactly. Mm-hmm. So like, hello. Um, even though we've got equal pay, we're still so marginalized. Yeah. Like, um, it's so sad. Like it's, and until, like you just look at what the girls are doing now, like hellos, like, um, that area, um, that aerial that, um, that got done in, in the US Open by the Brazilian girl Slv a couple of days.

[01:08:51] Yeah. Sivan Lima. Like, uh, it came up on one of my Instagram feeds and I just, Stood [01:09:00] up and I was at, like, I was at a work, I was, you know, with a few guys from work, and I just went, look, look at this. And, and one of the guys, he's a recreational surfer. He doesn't have Facebook, he doesn't have Instagram. I taught surfing with him in the 2003.

[01:09:18] I've known him for now 20 years. And, um, you know, we, that's how we met. And, um, and he's such a lovely man, rolly Polly. And, and he, he looks at me and goes, she rips like, yeah, just like, and I'm like, yeah, d and, and he lives on the Gold Coast. And so he gets to see the girls and, and that's what he said. He goes, he goes, I paddle out at Snapper and.

[01:09:48] You know, Steph's the best in the water, like the best style. And I'm like, what? Out of what? When Mick and Joel paddle out, and then you've got guys like Dingo and, and other people, you know, like all the, the [01:10:00] next tier down in the past here, and you've got Aki out there still. And, and he turns around and he goes, I'm gonna tell you now, Steph's like the queen and the mayor of that, that break.

[01:10:11] Yeah. And I'm just like, that's coming from someone that is outside of the polarization of media. 'cause he doesn't have Instagram, he doesn't have Facebook. He does, he's the, the 0.1% that's not watching any, um, anything from like, um, anyone else. He's just going off what he sees and what he believes as good surfing and, and uh, and that's like the girls have got there with only being allowed, like the boys are getting this much of the pie and the girls are getting that much.

[01:10:45] Mm-hmm. And um, That comes back to sponsorship dollars and everything. Mm-hmm. It's, it's

[01:10:52] Tyler: also, it's interesting that I keep hearing though from people being like, well, the men have advantage that, that they have more [01:11:00] bone density and things of that nature. I keep hearing, I'm like, I would think bone density would actually work against you in surfing because that would make you heavier and weighted more, you know, like, I don't know if that works.

[01:11:13] Like, and I look at like a Jackson Dorian, who's tiny and has, uh, is probably just hitting, you know, you know, the, that age of puberty, but like, There are kids who are 11, who are doing these incredible maneuvers. And, and to me, I'm like, well then it's not really muscle. It's technique,

[01:11:33] Karen: isn't it? I think there's like so much mental gymnastics happening to keep the status quo, you know, and trying to find ways in which like, you know, okay, one gender, like first of all the binary, and then like one gender is, is like to differentiate the genders.

[01:11:49] Like, God forbid, there was like this spectrum that just had all this nuance and, but we have to like, create this categorization and, and [01:12:00] then build institutions based on that and cultures and I, I feel like there's, they're trying so hard to, to make that thing real when it's obviously. You know, it's a construct.

[01:12:11] It's a social construct.

[01:12:12] Sasha: Yeah. Oh, exactly. But you look at like, and even just touching on, you said, look at, um, Jackson Dorian, look at Philippe Toledo. Look at his size. Yeah. And his structure. He's, he's honestly, he's like top 65 kilos. Right. And five foot six, five foot seven, five foot, nothing. And he's Yeah.

[01:12:34] Karen: Looks more taller than

[01:12:35] Sasha: him and bigger, like you stand Courtney Conlogue next to him. Yeah. She's like, her arms are as big as, as his legs. Like, I'm sorry. Like, and, and he's running high levels of testosterone mm-hmm. That give you things like endurance and, and muscle fiber, um, density. That's the difference.

[01:12:58] That the [01:13:00] reason, and I believe the genders should stay, um, Separated, but with you, you've gotta, they've gotta, we've gotta come to an understanding that a trans woman is, is a woman. Mm-hmm. And, and that's just, that's just black and white. I think Worm put it so perfectly. We're in, we're in New Zealand at the start of the year or around April, and, and I just overheard at, at dinner her talking with someone else and someone was saying something stupid and I just, at that point, wasn't buying into any of it.

[01:13:32] I was just like, I, I don't wanna know about it. Whatever. I don't even entertain this conversation anymore. And, and she was, I just heard her say, well, it's not that Sasha should be included, it's she's in mm-hmm. And she's there and any other trans woman is a woman. Mm-hmm. Just like Sasha's a woman. Right.

[01:13:52] So, like, and, and won't put it just that frankly. She's like, she's just in, she, it's like it's, she's a [01:14:00] woman. Like mm-hmm. With the, that. Mm-hmm. Staunch worm face of like, take me on with that comment. I, I

[01:14:09] Tyler: keep hearing people be like, oh, biological, you know, biological woman. Biological man, you know? And I'm like, what does that even mean, really?

[01:14:18] Like where I, well I feel like people say it, but they don't even actually have an, an understanding of what that is.

[01:14:25] Sasha: They've got no idea. And that's the whole thing. So like, if you talk to anyone that's got any idea of biology, um, gender is, um, in our social quo is a, is a construct. And I heard you use that language and, and you're dead.

[01:14:41] Right? It is a construct, but. Um, when you talk about biological sex, and I don't like to, I always say to other women that aren't very educated on that and men that aren't very educated on that, be very careful using those terminologies. 'cause it can get weaponized [01:15:00] very, very quickly. Mm-hmm. And if you don't have the knowledge to de weaponize it, steer clear of using that sort of terminology.

[01:15:07] Yeah. Mm-hmm. I'm open to use it because, um, as you're about to find out, I'm, I'm pretty educated on it from firsthand and lived experience, so. Mm-hmm. And that's why I will go down this path. Um, basically biological male and biological female actually is a figment of your imagination. And in talk to anyone that's doing any sort of biology, there's a spectrum.

[01:15:37] Mm-hmm. And the spectrum starts with, um, Genitals, internal, external, right. Biological, all the way from genital growth to chromosomes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and so basically you, Tyler, being, um, a, a cis male man, um, [01:16:00] assumed male at, at birth, and Karen being a cis uh, woman, being presumed, presumed female at birth, basically, the, the doctor picked you up, held you on the bum like that, looked at your genitals and went, Taylor, you gotta fully form penis mail on the birth certificate and.

[01:16:22] Vagina, female on the, now you would've heard the, the terminology, um, that gets thrown around, which is old terminology, which is called hermaphrodite. Mm-hmm. And it's now we, we use the, it's been recoined or rephrased as intersex. Mm-hmm. Um, and basically there's a lot of, um, it's a lot more common within the African, um, like, um, people where the, the African women have a big intersex, um, component to their [01:17:00] biology.

[01:17:01] Now, um, I myself have been diagnosed to have, um, intersex traits and it's very hard to get that diagnosis in different countries for whatever reasons. Um, history generally comes from the church and, and whatnot and political backgrounds. Mm-hmm. But what it means is, um, for me what it means is I've got XX chromosomes with, um, deformities, y deformities off the back end of, um, the, the second X, so mm-hmm.

[01:17:35] Um, XX being, um, female and x, y being, uh, male. Um, so there's two, there's like a spectrum and basically you can have, um, a fully x xx with very minimal y and you'll have, um, external. [01:18:00] Formed genitalia a, a male or female, or both. Mm-hmm. Or just one. It it's just such a, a crazy,

[01:18:10] Tyler: um, there's so many combinations, right?

[01:18:13] Sasha: Yeah. And, and, and then there can be x y with x f deformities and, and it's just so many different things and they're, they're discovering and it's, they look at animals in the wild that, um, that actually can mm-hmm. That change their genitalia, mid midlife, um, naturally. And, and yet you've got these people that go, oh, well it's impossible.

[01:18:41] It's your biological male. And it's like, hang on a minute, like, science knows so much. Mm-hmm. But yet you just wanna dismiss that. Um mm-hmm. Yeah. And say, that's not right. So, Yeah. Like there's to touch on like with a lot of intersex babies that are born, [01:19:00] um, pre 1980 and all the way through to two thousands, uh, here in Australia, if you had fully formed male bits, uh, and I use that.

[01:19:11] You think like a,

[01:19:14] Tyler: I like that. You know, it's a good representation of male bits. Yeah. You would be presumed in a hand gesture. Yeah.

[01:19:23] Karen: For our listeners. You can't see. It's kind of a forget about it. Yeah,

[01:19:26] Tyler: yeah. Emotion. Forget about type of emotion. Yeah. You would, you would be presumed good. That was a good one.

[01:19:33] Sasha: Yeah. You'd be presumed male at birth even if you had fully formed female bits as well. And you know, the doctors would sometimes not even tell the parents. Yeah. And, uh, and do what they, yeah. And do what they call corrective surgery. Oh. And, um, and corrective surgery in some cases was just outright bush hospital butchery.

[01:19:57] Oh. Uh, with a, you [01:20:00] know, scalpel and a vacuum. Oh. And, um, so awful. Yeah. And so in Australia here, I've done a little bit of work with a couple of groups and we're, we're trying to work to outlaw that surgery without the right consultation and the right, um, form of action, um, and sort of let those children be.

[01:20:22] Right. Um, and that, that's very close to my heart. That's how, that was something that was, um, and it's probably the first time I've publicly spoken about this on the record. So for me, that's what I, I experienced life from that point of view. Um, so, you know, re regardless of, of what. How I presented and what I had and, and what, um, went on prior to me coming out as trans.

[01:20:53] I wasn't even aware of this until I went to a gender clinic. Wow. Mm-hmm. And they were, they tested me for my [01:21:00] hormones and they're just like, ah, you're running, are you taking that? They, I got straight up, I said like, are you taking hormones? Wow. Already. And I'm like, no. Why? They're like, well, you're running seven times more testosterone than a normal man.

[01:21:16] And you're running at about, you're almost running estrogen levels of, of first trimester female. Whoa. Oh, wow. And I'm just like, I'm like, what does that mean? Like, that's a lot of hormones. Yeah. I'm like, what does that mean? They're like, it's any wonder that you're not in a psych ward? Oh man. Like there's a war going on in your body.

[01:21:39] Oof. Um, uh, Then like as I told my story to this gender clinic, they're like, yeah, have you, do you cycle with stomach pains as in menstruation pains? And I was like, yeah. I went to a doctor about it years ago and I was told it was just, um, phantom. Wow. Um, [01:22:00] what's it called? Sympathy pains? Yes. For the, my partner ear gas sympathy pains.

[01:22:06] Oh, whoa. Wow. Yeah. So when they do these surgeries on an infant, um, you can imagine a little baby, gosh. And they're there just with a scalpel and a vacuum and, um, they miss bits and they leave bits behind Oh, and whatnot. And yeah, some, some people are left with, you know, operating girl bits still inside them.

[01:22:34] So, Yeah, it gets quite heavy and sorry to take this very in that direction, but that's, no, I think this is

[01:22:41] Karen: so informative and you know, I think yeah, the more people can know, you know, I think it's important. That's part of the issue. There's so much ignorance Yeah. Around gender and what, what actually happens.

[01:22:53] And I think there's so much stigma so people don't talk about it and, you know, discrimination and so it, you know, like all [01:23:00] these things haven't been aired out to the public. And I mean, I feel like I, I remember learning this in my, like sex education class in college. It took me going to college, but it was like, what if I didn't go to that college and didn't happen to take that

[01:23:12] Tyler: class and just learning all this now?

[01:23:14] Yeah. You know, it's like, I mean, it's, it's, yeah, it's really, you know, like obviously I've read a lot about it and, and, and, you know, I'm not totally ignorant, but it, it's, it's. Still to hear it from, from, from your experience and from your understanding. It's, it really opens up the conversation and you're like, well then really, I don't know if anyone hears this or listens to it, who, who might have had a different opinion before, like, this should really help spell it out.

[01:23:47] Yeah. Like in, in a much more clear way.

[01:23:50] Karen: And even culturally, I feel like in around the world before colonialism, there were so many, you know, none of these things were seen as like, out of [01:24:00] the spectrum or, you know, it was like included into their societies. And only when the Christians missionaries with their kind of brand of, of morality and, and how things are supposed to be, did these things come into play?

[01:24:12] Even in matriarchal societies did. That effect of colonialism shift the society into these kind of patriarchal societies and, you know, mis misogynistic societies where, so there's a lot also I think in the history of, you know, US colon or Christian missionaries and imperialism and colonialism, that a lot of things, uh, got embedded into the culture as well.

[01:24:35] And people just don't Yeah. Have that awareness, you know?

[01:24:39] Sasha: Well, that's the thing, some of, some of the most beautiful messages I've got, uh, come from the Hawaiian, um, friends and have from the longboarding community mm-hmm. Of just like, you know, when things would get really loud and, and they'd be like, sending you love and, and I'd be like, wow,

[01:24:58] Karen: I'm so happy to hear [01:25:00] that.

[01:25:00] I really am. Because I was really disheartened by all the kind of support I saw from a lot of the surf community in Hawaii, um, towards Bethany. It was really like

[01:25:10] Sasha: heartbroken. I think when you look at that, a lot of that. Comes from the white colonialism, Hawaiians. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Without being too nasty or mm-hmm.

[01:25:23] Or like trying to, or even some the,

[01:25:25] Karen: the, the, you know, um, the ones that are on the Christian side, you know.

[01:25:30] Sasha: Yeah. But, um, just touching back what we spoke about and something I really need to sort of push across that's really important on top of, to let you sort of understand that spectrum mm-hmm. Of what happens with intersex children, with everything I've just told you.

[01:25:46] Think about that. But then what was done was, um, a big part of the practice and, and it happened in America a lot and it happened here pretty much 1 0 1, the go-to [01:26:00] was they would come to the parents and go, we need to do emergency surgery on your baby. 'cause their reproductive organs are on the outside of their body.

[01:26:09] Hmm. And not even tell the, give the parents the opportunity to make that decision. Um, and in some cases, the, they weren't even told, they were just told, oh, we, the baby's rushed off and, and it's just performed. Oh my God, I can't even imagine a little baby. Yeah. And, and to give you an idea of the numbers that they believe, um, it's 1.7% of babies are born intersex.

[01:26:39] Mm-hmm. And that's because there's only 1.7% babies born intersex that are reported. Mm-hmm. Wow. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, right.

[01:26:50] Tyler: This is a potential for a much larger, larger percentage.

[01:26:54] Sasha: Yeah. Um, so God, you've got this group of people that are just. [01:27:00] You've got, you know, and got these thoughts and these whys and, and whatever.

[01:27:08] Um, so yeah, it is, it is a very, very, um, and that's why I've sort of tried to help support the, the people that are lobbying to get these, um, these laws changed, um, to stop doctors having that ability. And, mm, we've got one. Our, um, our National Capital, Canberra has its own, um, they're their own territory within New South Wales, and they're the first people that have legislated against that practice, and they're the first place that's legislated against, um, conversion therapy as well.

[01:27:42] Wow. Um, so another, is

[01:27:44] Karen: it the only place or is it other?

[01:27:47] Sasha: Yeah, so they've, they've actually, um, like it's legislation that you've. That it's the, the child must just that it's, it's basically been written into law that it's this child's not wrong [01:28:00]being born that way. Mm-hmm. You know, it just sets that train of thought and that's how I read it.

[01:28:06] Mm-hmm. Um, and read the play. And as in where, you know, the whole, the whole terminology, um, corrective surgery. Mm-hmm. You know, like, um, it's like straight away you, you, you've got this newborn baby and, and you're thinking, well, there's something wrong. They're having to correct something. Um, it's

[01:28:27] Karen: just heartbreaking to think of the kind of like violence done to the body, you know, of a, of a baby.

[01:28:33] You know, who also has no. Rights in this, you know, like yeah. Has no say in it and has to live in this body, you know?

[01:28:41] Sasha: And their guardians don't even get the whole story. Oh God. Or the whole picture. Or, or, or even know, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause yeah, it's, it's pretty wild. So, yeah.

[01:28:55] Tyler: So, um, changing topic.

[01:28:58] No, I'm kidding. Um, [01:29:00] I wanted to also touch on fairness in sport, that, that kind of topic, because that seems to come up a lot as well. And what is fair and where is the line of, of fairness in, in sport, because that seems to be a big part of this discussion. And, you know, I have, I have my thoughts about what is fair and, and, and I just think it's, it gets kind of ridiculous sometimes, you know, that whole conversation.

[01:29:28] It does.

[01:29:29] Sasha: And um, I think if you speak to any, I. Elite athlete or coach. Um, sport has never been fair in when you look at the crux of it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because if you, let's just like use an example, like, um, probably like use a geographical example. Mm-hmm. Example, um, example where you like somewhere like if you grew up on Beachside LA [01:30:00] compared to like, you come from the Bronx Yeah.

[01:30:03] And you're a surfer. Uh, is that fair?

[01:30:07] Tyler: No, it's definitely not gonna be fair.

[01:30:11] Sasha: Yeah. So, and it, but yet I am, and you and and Karen we're all allowed to compete with someone from Arizona, you know. Yeah. Or, or wherever. Um, so I think the best I. And I like to lean back on how the Olympics, their line that they used forever mm-hmm.

[01:30:34] Was like, um, Olympic sport or elite sport, um, is never fair, but it's having a reasonable amount of fairness. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which is like, and that's where that um, you know, you talk about like a sport like, um, boxing where they have weight categories. Yeah. Um, and most sports have have gender [01:31:00] categories, um, because, you know, and that's where the misconstrued comes from, of like, oh, males.

[01:31:07] And it's that train of thought that we're all taught that, that males are just superior. We, we, we as women, have just gotta be subservient and, and this male body is just stronger, greater, better. Um, and, but it's not the case. Yeah. Men. Are surfing better because, uh, hello. They've been getting given a hundred times more money for 25 years more than that.

[01:31:35] Yeah. And, and double the amount of places on tour every year, um, if it was an office setting or, or a corporate setting. Um, and not saying that this should or would happen, but the a s P and the W S L in a corporate setting would be up for a massive litigation. Yeah. Um, fair work claim, [01:32:00] um, no matter what country you are in, um, because of, you know, the, the fairness and companies talking about corporate, big companies like B H P have, have recognized that.

[01:32:12] And, and you go onto a B H P work environment now, and, and you've got. Um, high-end managers that are amazing, that are female. Um, you know, running like I work in, in mining on Yeah. On the Port Loadout system and on a B H P site. And one of our, our, um, frontline managers is a man and he's a man, and his, his boss is, is this amazing woman that just, you know, handles herself in that environment so well.

[01:32:46] And as another woman working a couple of steps down, 'cause I'm a, I'm a team leader within that, um, that chain of command. Um, it's just, it's inspiring, you know, to, [01:33:00] to know that you've got. I could aspire to go to that height. You know, there's someone up there, up the ladder and it comes back to, um, you know, like you can't be what you can't see.

[01:33:13] Yeah. Um, with women's sport now, like, you know, like you, have you guys been watching the Women's World Cup? Like that's been going on here in Australia? Like the, that's amazing. We've been getting the biggest crowds that the World Cups ever seen. Like men, all, all women. Uh, and like our TV free to Air TVs just released that.

[01:33:40] The biggest watched event was, um, the, the Matildas, the Australian women's team beating the Olympic Gold Medalist Team Canada. And we Right, right. You know, we, we took them to bits and have made it to the knockout rounds, you know, and that's now the, the most [01:34:00] watched. Single two hours of tv. Incredible. Um, in Australia, so Oh, that just, yeah.

[01:34:06] 10% of our country watched it. Amazing. Yeah.

[01:34:10] Tyler: Well, it's, it's interesting with like the fairness, like, again, like Malcolm Gladwell u use this great example, someone who's born in January. It's most likely gonna have an advantage over someone who's born in December, but they're gonna be in the same grade in school.

[01:34:27] They're gonna, but that person who was born in January might get the edge on that person in the sport, and then they will get, be given, you know, other advantages because of that one little advantage starting at a young age. And then it just kind of domino effects all the way down until they're adults basically.

[01:34:44] And, and that's when I'm always like, you keep talking about fairness. What's fair? Kelly Slater has a double jointed back. How is that fair? You know, like, yeah, what, what are we talking about? Fair. Because it's so, it's so subjective and so [01:35:00] like over the top sometimes that I just think, yeah, just the way the I O C has done it has been great.

[01:35:07] You know, it's actually threaded the needle really well. I.

[01:35:11] Sasha: Yeah. And I think the sad thing that's happened with the polarized politics, and sorry to keep going back to that, was with the I ooc, is they, they, they sort of saw a problem with their blanket, um, rule that they had for all sports in the Olympics, which kind of was the overarching, um, rule.

[01:35:33] If you want to be in the Olympics, you've gotta have trans inclusion kind of thing. And that's been like that since the nineties. Yeah. Um, and think about that. And that's something I always use as a defense, um, comment to people that are like, oh, trans women are taking over women's sport. We must save women's sport.

[01:35:52] And I'm like, well, how many trans women have been to the Olympics? How many have qualified? And they're like, oh. [01:36:00]

[01:36:00] Tyler: Two, they can't even name it, you know?

[01:36:02] Sasha: Yeah. They're like two. And I'm like, name them. Yeah. And they're like, ah. And then, and I'm like, exactly. And, and trans women have been allowed to go for, you know, we're talking 27 years.

[01:36:15] Yeah. Um, it's, so,

[01:36:18] Tyler: it's also to me, I'm like, can you name how many people who have been busted for steroids? Why aren't you worried about that instead? That seems to be a bigger issue, I think, than trans competing in sports and, and especially in surfing, where we don't even really test for that. I can't, I, I imagine there are people on tour who may or may not be taking steroids or performance enhancing drugs.

[01:36:43] So where's the outrage there?

[01:36:46] Sasha: Hats off to the I O C I and hats off to the I s a. Yes. Um, I s a Fernando, in my opinion, Has been a breath of [01:37:00] fresh air for the surfing. Yes. Competitive surfing and elite surfing. The things the I s A do, I just, every time they come out with, um, one of their initiatives, like what they do for the marginalized, um, small countries to promote surfing, I'm just like, you guys are phenomenal.

[01:37:20] Yeah. Um, his mission statement at New Year's Eve, um, because the, I the W S L adopted Yeah. Their, theirs and, and I, and it was so short, so many people, like I, I shared the ISAs, um, and it was in October I shared with everyone, 'cause I got the news through Surfing Australia, that, that, um, basically, um, 'cause I finished fourth and I was like two, two to three spots qualifying to go to the worlds.

[01:37:57] Um, The Aussies are about to start running now, [01:38:00] I've chosen not to compete at that level this year, just through taking a bit of a break. But basically I was very close to qualifications. So Surfing Australia were like, look at this. Like up until now, um, we didn't know if you had a qualified that you would've been able to go, and now you can.

[01:38:18] And this is the, the, the crux of it. And, um, and the World Surf League, um, adopted that, that policy. So that was, it was good to have that transparency. And when they did, through the, the commentary I had with them that they were straight up, it was, there was a lot of negative commentary from the broader community of, oh, they've done no work and that, but they did, they put in, they went and researched.

[01:38:43] They got a, they have a, um, medical board and a, a chief of of medical. Um, practitioner that is a, a certified general practitioner and a sports scientist, and, uh, and they went and looked at it and went, [01:39:00] um, yep. We like the waiting period of 12 months from, um, start of hormone therapy or, or not even start, but we want to see a minimum of 12 months mm of a, of a suppressed testosterone level.

[01:39:17] And we want to see that continuously and we want that logged back to us in blood tests that, um, you know, that I, I get any, any girl or guy that does hormone replacement therapy has to get ongoing blood tests mm-hmm. Uh, on a regular, just to maintain those levels to make sure the therapy's working. Um, and, and I just submit them on a, on a, on periodic time basis.

[01:39:45] Um, and we come to an agreement, um, I just said, I'll just send you every time I go, I go by monthly. But they were like, oh, we only need once every six months, um, and, and whatnot. And I was like, yeah, no worries. But, um, the I s A [01:40:00] had settled that up and um, yeah, then when I heard the Fernando's mission statement, new Year's Eve, and he was like talking about inclusion and all these things, I was just like, you are such an amazing human being.

[01:40:15] Seriously. Uh, and he, he was talking on so many levels that the general public wouldn't have even thought, you know, he was talking about, um, getting those underprivileged, um, nations, uh, that have, um, have struggled to, to be included and be involved included. And, and, you know, and I took that inclusion of, of, you know, talk just passed off a, a trance, a trans.

[01:40:45] Inclusion policy. So I took it for that too. So I was, I was very impressed.

[01:40:53] Tyler: And we will be right back. And now back

[01:40:57] Sasha: to our show. Hmm. [01:41:00]

[01:41:00] Karen: Oh, this, you know, that's another thing. It's like, doesn't it feel so good to be able to, you know, like all these values inherently, you know, like it feels good. Like, so it, it's always baffling to me to see people who just fall into the trap of, of, you know, I mean, something should not feel right.

[01:41:19] I mean, they, I guess they, in their mind they have the banner of righteousness, you know, they're whatever, holy wars or whatever it is. Um, and then, you know, fueled by like the Fox News is of the world. But, you know, I just feel like there. I don't know. Maybe that is, that is the crux of the issue. They feel that they're right and they feel that they are talking about something good.

[01:41:45] I don't know. Like it to me just feels like talking out against, you know, it's like one thing to talk out about a criminal or somebody doing real harm in the world, but to [01:42:00] talk again, you know, speak against and, and try to, um, legislate against other people just living their lives. That is so cruel to me.

[01:42:11] You know, all these, like, we have so many bills, anti-trans bills, anti L G B T bills now on the table. Yeah. Um, and it's awful. Like, I, I just don't understand this, this, you know, the values in that, you know, it just like, What feels good about

[01:42:28] Sasha: that? Nothing. Yeah. And so like to back that up, one of the best comments that was said to me was by, uh, RO Caroline, who's a really close friend of mine, and, um, it's her first year.

[01:42:41] Oh. She was surfing in Huntington just this week and shout out to you Roro, you, you legend. But, um, she said to me, and it's, and it's something that I listened to and, and she's been a big supporter and it's something that's sunk in. Um, and she turned around and she's like, sars, [01:43:00]it's, I'm not against the people that are, are speaking out and, and have issues with your inclusion.

[01:43:08] It's just they don't understand yet. And, and, um, they'll, once they actually see you and get to know you and, and hear and understand if they, if they've got that opinion, that's their opinion. Mm-hmm. Um, but if, if. They, um, get to see you, uh, they, they probably most likely, um, be able to see things differently.

[01:43:37] Mm-hmm. And, um, and for me, I sort of, because for me it was really hard. You got all this negative media and like you said, that I got really tangled up in the whole political, um, like getting my back up, like, oh, this ban in this state of America. Mm-hmm. And they've done this and they've done that. And I was [01:44:00] get, I was getting so overwhelmed.

[01:44:01] Mm-hmm. And I was almost to the point I was like, I just can't see this. I, I can't. Yeah. I can't even, you gotta turn it off. It's toxic. Yeah. I can't follow them anymore because it's just this state that state, yeah, this is right. Anti-trans. And I'm like, oh god, it's, it's too much. Yeah. Um, and I did, I had to switch off to it for, for my best health.

[01:44:25] Absolutely. Mm-hmm. But going back to what Roe said to me, because at I was having this issue with this one person that was, it was saying some just outrageous lies and mm-hmm. And being quite loud about it. And, and, and she was in my space too. And, and it, when you look at like, the reality of why she was saying that there was self gain for her and, and whatnot mm-hmm.

[01:44:52] To be saying these things and, and a fair bit of other reasons that I worked on [01:45:00]mentally myself with, you know, therapy and whatnot and they were like, think about why this person's doing this and whatnot. And I was like, yeah, yeah, it makes sense. But, um, to more to the point of like the general public of, you know, it's just they don't understand, a lot of these people don't understand and their picture of a trans person is not what we actually are.

[01:45:23] Mm-hmm. Right. Um, because they haven't met us and they haven't Right. Even they're just taking what Fox Sports told them. Right. What Fox News has told them. And, um, what Des Santo's new education bill is unbelievable. It's awful. Um, so yeah, it's sheer ignorance, sadly. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

[01:45:44] Tyler: can I ask, like, have you had any conversations with people that you've been able to change their minds or have been pleasantly surprised with?

[01:45:55] Sasha: A hundred percent have, um, to the point where [01:46:00] I've had people that have come to the conversation with an open mind, but with an agenda. Mm-hmm. And then have actually openly. Come and sort me out, like weeks after that conversation. And, and I just left that conversation going, they're a bit off. What was, you know, yeah.

[01:46:19] What was going on there? And, and just thought nothing of it. Because I've had to come to the realization that I can't change your opinion. It's not, I can't control your emotions. I can control my emotions and that's, I can control what I say. I can't control what anyone else says or does. And, um, and for me that was a, a bit of a groundbreaking revelation and, and helped me.

[01:46:44] But yeah, this person, and it's happened on more occasion, but I'm thinking this one off time, this person and I, and it was a friend too, and I was like, oh, that was a bit off. And then they come back weeks later and gave me a big hug and just said, thank you, thank you for [01:47:00]actually taking the time and.

[01:47:02] Explaining to me, um, a few things that I, I asked and, and not getting upset because, because for a fair while I was like, I'm not an educator, I shouldn't have to educate everyone. Mm-hmm. And, and you shouldn't have to, but there's two sides to that. Do you mm-hmm. Do you want, do you want to help the people in your, that you, you walk past?

[01:47:30] Do you wanna help the people? You, are you a good person and do you wanna make a change? Is kind of, um, is what it come back to. For me as a, as a person, I was like, it doesn't hurt for me to share my story. It doesn't hurt for me to take five minutes outta my day to, to share. And, and it was sort of an a.

[01:47:51] For me, sharing what I shared earlier about, um, my personal story that I've, frankly, you've got the scoop on that one. Um, I've never shared [01:48:00] that deep. Um, eat it David Lee

[01:48:02] Tyler: scales

[01:48:06] Sasha: for, for me, that was, um, that was important for me to actually move forward and share that because that part of me is my story. Mm-hmm. And is there, there's a big part of the community that has, that happened to them. Mm-hmm. Um, and it does give people a perspective, um, of, whoa, like this, this is a thing. Um mm-hmm.

[01:48:34] And, and it was for me, I didn't share that. In the early stages of all my media and whatnot publicly, because I was in fear that it would divide the trans community. Um, but a close friend of mine that knew the full story. Um, and there's a lot more to that story that, um, that will get shared in the book that I'm writing at the moment.

[01:48:59] Karen: Yes. [01:49:00] That's great.

[01:49:02] Sasha: Yeah. So that they were, they were straight up. They were like, you've gotta share that part of your story. Like it's, it's not gonna divide the community. Mm-hmm. It doesn't like, um, don't be fearful of that. Mm-hmm. Um, because my fear was the right wing would, would get hold of it and go, well, well, it's okay for her.

[01:49:21] She's a, she's an intersex woman, but we're gonna ban all the Oh, geez. Un intersex.

[01:49:26] Karen: Yeah. I mean, they'll find a way. They'll find a way. Yeah.

[01:49:29] Sasha: Anyway, and, uh, and that come back to, um, talking about. A bit of self-worth revelation that I've come worked through of, of recent. It doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter what you say.

[01:49:43] Someone that, um, hates you is gonna watch Right. Every movie you do and find something. Yeah, exactly. Um, and sort of that was sort of, I took a break from competitive surfing and I was like, do I, I was considering never to compete again, just 'cause of that negativity [01:50:00] and, and it come to a point I was like, I like competing.

[01:50:04] I like, yeah, I like the community aspect of my, my global and, and national family and friends that are mm-hmm. The chosen family and friends. Right. Not the, the blood ones and the, the family you choose my community, my surfers. And, um, and I was like, and I'm, I'm not being with them because of these people that Right.

[01:50:28] You know, um, dislike me. Right. Um, So, yeah, I was like, no, I'm gonna, and, and the break was good. I needed the break. I was suffering a bit of burnout. Mm-hmm. From trying to, I think I came back a bit too early from my, um, bottom surgery and pushed a bit too hard. Mm-hmm. So, well,

[01:50:50] Tyler: Sasha, um, I am just so, um, grateful to have been able to have this conversation [01:51:00] with you.

[01:51:00] Yes. Mm-hmm. Like, we really like, I'm, I'm getting a little teary eyed even. 'cause it was just, it was really No, you, you, you articulate everything so you wonderfully and in such a great way, um, that I think a lot of people who listen to this are gonna get something out of it. And I, I really appreciate you coming on and, and sharing, uh, all of your story and, and it's really inspiring and God, like, I'm, I'm just.

[01:51:30] I'm just like, uh, such a big fan and really, really cheering you on and really excited for your future as well. Mm-hmm. And hopefully you kick some ass in some of the competitions coming up.

[01:51:43] Yeah.

[01:51:45] Sasha: Yeah. I, I just like to put on a good show of good surfing. That's my whole goal is, um, we compete against the ocean, not each other.

[01:51:55] Right. I like that even more. That's, that's surfing. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah. But thank you and thank [01:52:00] you for having me both. Um, it's been a pleasure and I love listening to the podcast. You guys do touch on some great subjects. So, um, thank you for having me along and, and I look forward to hearing some more really amazing subjects that you guys like to talk about and, and hopefully, um, One day I can get to Rockaway and Oh, that'd be great.

[01:52:23] Oh yeah, I get to

[01:52:25] Karen: you better

[01:52:26] Tyler: ping us immediately. Got a spare. We got a spare room here. I'll come uptown for that. Right on the beach. We come uptown. We got you. You know, so, or you can come join me downtown. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

[01:52:39] Sasha: But yeah, thank you for having me. Our pleasure,

[01:52:41] Tyler: Sasha. Thank you. Thank you Sasha.

[01:52:44] Awesome. And, uh, for all our listeners, don't forget to go check us out at, uh, swell season surf radio.com and also at Swell Season Surf Radio on Instagram. And, uh, we're also on threads as well. So, hey, if you [01:53:00] want to check this out there and uh, we'll check you all down the line soon.

[01:53:15] Sasha: And my dreams, you should say the things we do.