The Announcement with Matt Barr

The Announcement with Matt Barr

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Tyler: Hello and welcome to the Swell Season Surf podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Brewer. Can a corporation be an instrument for good in our world? Or is capitalism inherently flawed and relies on constant consumerism and thus is always extracting from our world instead of adding value back to it? These are questions that Matt Barr journalist and podcaster has been wrestling with over the past year.

In September, 2022, Patagonia founder Yvonne Cho, transferred ownership of the company to two new entities effectively making Earth the sole shareholder. The Patagonia Purpose Trust owns 100% of the voting stock, ensuring the company's values and missions are maintained while the hold fast. Collective. A 5 [00:02:00] 0 1 C four nonprofit owns a hundred percent of the non-voting stock and will receive all profits not reinvested back into the business, using them to protect nature and fight climate change.

This announcement made headlines and brought a lot of attention to this different model of running a corporate entity. Some saw this as the inspiration other companies might need to help stem the growing tides of climate change. And Matt has launched an Epic three-part podcast documentary series called The Announcement.

It's perhaps one of the best journalistic pieces I have ever listened to that takes place in the action sports world. Matt pieces together a masterful series with insightful interviews, engaging questions, and some smooth voiceover work by yours. Truly, it's compelling and raises a lot of solid questions we all might have about this [00:03:00] move by Patagonia and what does it mean for us?

What does this actually mean at all? What did Yvonne Chenard actually do? And what about the scrutiny the company received? And this really, this is really a critical moment in the history of capitalism as Patagonia believes. I'm always excited to chat with Matt and really stoked to have him back on the show.

Matt, welcome to Swell Season, my man.

Matt: Hey, good to see you. Hi. That, and tha thanks for that. But yeah, that was, that was a buildup. Fucking hell. Um, yeah.

Tyler: to do that to all my guests, you know. No pressure.

Matt: No, I really appreciate that. That's super kind. That's, uh, I'll take that review. Yeah, yeah. I'm good. I'm good. I'm coming. I'm beaming to you from my caravan in Normandy, in Northern France.  

Tyler: I want to first acknowledge like how much I appreciated your skeptical optimism that you display throughout this series.

Um, it's refreshing and [00:04:00] honest. Like you're not totally like listening to it, like it doesn't feel like you're a fucking Patagonia cheerleader. It feels like you are a very honest investigative journalist who. Is hopeful that this is an a way that we can kind of move forward. But also you're, you're asking really good, hard questions, which I really enjoyed in response to the people who maybe gave you that criticism about not talking about the ground up stuff you did cover though.

And for listeners, like in episode two, I thought you did a really nice job in talking about, you know, uh, you were talking to, uh, one of, one of your subjects, I forgot her name, I'm sorry. But it was

Matt: probably. Probably. I Deep core you're thinking of?

Tyler: yeah, it was the distributive model of Phil Philanthropy. You

Matt: Oh, that actually, so that might, yeah. That might be all debt, but there's a couple of Very, very, yeah, there's a couple of women I spoke to, all XL and IMM Deep core who? Who, yeah. They're engaged in this work for sure. Yeah.

Tyler: and that is, you know, they were saying the problem with [00:05:00] philanthropy is it's been this top down process. It's not a decentralized process, it's not a localized process. A lot of it, it's very much like these big, you know, non-profits, the Carnegie Mellon or the Ford Foundation where they dole out the money and then you gotta go to these big companies to dole out the money.

And it's all like. Kind of feels centralized and less decentralized. And a lot of these organizations there also, a lot of nonprofits are so top heavy. It's crazy. Like when you look at them, they're, they, they got so much staff and people are making a shit ton of money. Like my stepmother worked in this field, she worked for the Ford Foundation, she worked for the Arthur Ashe Foundation.

They were so top heavy in terms of

Matt: Yeah, my si my, my sister worked, my sister who helped me with this series, she exec produced it. She's called Joe Taylor, and she, she works in that world. Um, she, she ran a private foundation in Australia for years. So she, she was a brilliant [00:06:00] foil for me in this because she, she gave me that, exactly that insight.

And I know, you know, like, you'll probably remember in the third episode, there's a guy called ar sa, Aaron Sahan, who refers to this as the purpose industry, like, you know, and, and, and also refers to this mania for. Brands who want to be seen to be sustainable just blindly following like a B Corp path. And, and, and, and, and like, again, it just becomes an another sort of unquestioned gravy train in a way, doesn't it?

You know, like without really thinking about, well, what is the impact of this? Like, what good is it actually doing, you know?

Tyler: that's a, you know, and, and honestly like I. And, um, probably a lot of people would be pissed with me for saying this, but like, I, I remember like having a conversation with a, a friend of mine, this guy Aman Coney, who started the SOS foundation in Colorado. And it was like, um, you know, taking kids at [00:07:00] risk, kids snowboarding, give 'em another experience.

And I remember him saying this and it always stuck with me. And he said, you know, I do this, Tyler, really, not even for the kids. This is for me, this is for all the volunteers to feel good about themselves, to feel better. Like, yes, we're helping all these kids, we're doing these things, but it's also about the people who volunteer and making them feel good and the people involved.

And that's what I feel like this industry kind of is, is for people who wanna feel like they're doing some good in their life and, but they wanna make a living, uh, they wanna live in our capitalistic society. So, you know, you, you go into nonprofits, it feels good. And if you think you're doing good and you, you, you get some satisfaction out of it and, you know, and, uh, why shouldn't you get a six figure salary as well for doing it?

You know, and that's like, and that's where I think there's a bit of conflict sometimes with a lot of nonprofits and what they do and how they do it.

Matt: Well, I mean, you know, like you, like [00:08:00] you said at the beginning, can you run a capital, you know, it's one of the fundamental questions of the series, isn't it? It's like one of the main reasons that I wanted to make the series, like, can you actually do what Patagonia claim they're doing? Like, can you, can you be a ruthlessly extractive company that turns over hundreds of millions every year that is a, that like, that, that has factories in third world countries that makes plastic based products.

Like, you know, these are all objective facts, like, um, and, and still claim to be making a, a difference. Like, is that, and, and the obvious criticism that everyone always makes, it's not an original observation that I've just made, is, is like, well, you know, the best thing they could do is shut down now. For right or wrong, this is the world we live in.

So we're all reconciling another theme of the series with this contradiction, but at least let's have an honest fucking conversation about it. Like at least, at least let's at least let's ask our, at least let's stare it [00:09:00] head on, stare at it, head on, you know, like, and, and ask some questions about it. And it's the same with what, which is basically what you're doing there, isn't it?

With your friend and his sort of path. And it's a legit, it's a legitimate question to ask.

Tyler: it, it is and, and it's also like I. You, you bring up, uh, in episode two you talk about, uh, uh, the B Corp, right? Like this, uh, a lot of people are like, a lot of companies are trying to get this B Corp status, which, um, you know, for our listeners who might not be aware, I have like a, I have a definition for it somewhere in here, but, um, can you, can you, can you walk Okay.

BB Corp, you know, and what they are. Can you like just describe real quickly like what a B Corp is and why it's so valued?

Matt: so A B Corp is B corporation and it, it's essentially like, you could think of it as like a [00:10:00] kite mark that is bestowed upon a company that essentially tells a. Consumers and the company. This is also important that they are operating in a, in a, within the realms of a sustainable, ethical framework. So like companies that have to, company to achieve, it's actually hard to do, you know, you have to go through a pretty rigorous process and like it, there's loads of stuff about this, you can look it up, but essentially the, if you make it through that process, you get given this mark that's called a a B corp.

So Patagonia were, I think I'm correct in saying we're, we're maybe the first North American B Corp. Um, and it is, but it again, is very quickly turned into a, a badge. And, and, and one of the critiques of B Corp is it doesn't actually require companies to change. So like that, so within, [00:11:00] within the same, under the same mark, you will, you will have companies that have, and I'm kind of paraphrasing a guy called Aaron Sahan here, who is, who is, who talks about this at length in the third episode of the series.

And he, you know, he, he makes the point that under the, like you've got banks and, um, insurance companies and you know, and, and like companies that are just very clearly like. Taking more than they're giving. Let's be polite. Who've also got a B Corp alongside companies that really, genuinely are trying to look at their supply chains or look at their, you know, their, their corporate structure or, or, or like how they reward their employees or like, you know, all the, all these things that you could, you, you, you could interpret as a, as a proof of ethics and sustainability and, and so on.

So like, [00:12:00] it's quite a blunt tool that, um, and the other thing is as well, like that B Corp are encouraged to promote the fact that they've become B Corp. So for a consumer, it's kinda shorthand, you know, if you, if you are a savvy consumer and you are like thinking, well I wanna make a difference, like the easy option for you is to, is to, is to like just buy from a B Corp essentially.

But whether that actually makes a difference, you know, like, I can't remember who it was, it might have been Rip Curl. Were were a B-Corp, but they, you know, they've got a lot, they've got a lot. I don't quote me, it might not be B Court. It's one of the, it's one of the big,

Tyler: Global Surf Industries is a B Corp, uh, which make, uh, surfboards at the Cobra factory in Thailand, you know?

Matt: like, or, or like, you know, there's, there's, there's com there's surf companies that make Chloroquine rubber wetsuits who are B Corps.

Tyler: yeah,

Matt: How's that? How's that work?

Tyler: yeah. Well, it's, and this is the [00:13:00] thing that I think, uh, getting to is like when you become a B Corp though, you're supposed to be, and, and, and, uh, Sahan said this in, in, uh, episode three, like, you're supposed to give your company a lot of thought, and you're supposed to think about what, uh, what is this company?

What do we wanna do? Who are we? Um, like it's supposed to make you question all of that stuff, and, and to, so that you know who the company is, what you're doing, and how you can make a positive change, or how you can move forward. And it, it feels like now it's become just this badge as opposed to an actual real process sometimes, uh, from the outside in.

I don't know. You know, I'm not an expert in this, so I don't know the, the details of what goes into it,

Matt: I think it's Abso I think it's absolutely fair, you know, and, and again, that's now quite a mainstream view. And, and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to reflect that view in the series because, because the whole point of talking about those things in the announcement series was [00:14:00] what can ordinary in inverted comm companies do to try and emulate the purported impact of what Patagonia did?

Because Patagonia are a privately owned entity with huge resources, you know, and they've absolutely, you know, been. Incredibly well run over 50 years to get to that point. But that, but if you are, you know, if you're a publicly listed company, you can't do what they, you can't do what they've done. You know, you can't,

Tyler: Or private equity even, you know?

Matt: so like, so it's a very narrow, um, like it is just not an option for a lot of companies.

So what are the options? And that leads to B Corp because, because that's what most people do. Um, and so it's legitimate to, to challenge or even like, ask questions about that approach as it is to [00:15:00] ask questions about the Patagonia approach. Like if you purport to care about an issue enough that you want to try and affect change on the issue. Like what, what are your options

Tyler: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's the thing, like, I, I want to jump into this. Like, uh, I think one of the main questions we should really dive into is like, what, what is actually making the earth your sole shareholder actually mean, and can we break down for our listeners really like how this whole Patagonia setup works, uh, cliff note style short, you know, you know, we, you know, obviously

Matt: Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, like, so obviously, obviously it's important to preface that I don't work for Patagonia and you know, I, I'm, I am looking at this as an objective outside. Observer, who's a journalist. So I've just looked at this to try and understand it. It's exactly the starting point of why I began to make this series.

Like what does that actually mean? What [00:16:00] does Earth is our only shareholder? What does that actually mean? Um, and the first episode, and they and Patagonia were incredibly helpful in, in this. They were willing participants in this, like in the first episode to help me understand that. Um, and what I did was I went through, I went to Ventura, I interviewed a load of people I interviewed like Janet Johnson, like Ryan Galler didn't, they didn't want me to interview Yvonne. We can speculate why. Um, and I also examined all the sort of primary and secondary sources like all, uh, corporate comms, like interviews that everyone had done, like with Jamie Bris, our mutual friends, like, um, and so on to try and build this picture of, of, of what, what it is. And my conclusion, roughly speaking is it's, it's, and this is what they would also say, I think, uh, the companies like now in, there's three entities.

There's the Patagonia Purpose Trust, which again, is slightly shadowy, um, board, [00:17:00] um, uh,

Tyler: Well, Yvonne is on it. His fam, his kids, his family's on the board, right? Like,

Matt: Khan's on there. I think I or Elizabeth Johnson might be on there. Like, but it's, it's a handpicked group of people

Tyler: yeah,

Matt: and their job is to enshrine to ensure the values of the company. Are enshrined in the actions of the company, if we can put it that way, especially when Yvonne is dead, which will be very soon.

'cause he is an old man. Um, so that, so that, well, I mean that's just that, that, that is, that is an, that is an abs but like that is an absolute one of the reasons that they did this. Like let, let, let's not, let's, let's not that. And they are absolutely. That, that is out there. They, that is exactly one of the, they didn't, they didn't wake up one day and go like, Hey, let's make Ahor any shareholder.

They were like, we're gonna have a problem to solve soon.

Tyler: Mm-hmm.

Matt: What's the plan? And, and, and, [00:18:00] and that's what led them to this. Like, this is all I absolutely stand by saying that that's exactly what happens in the, the conclusion that you can draw from the first episode. And so, so that, so that was what the Patagonia Purpose Trust is for that guides to quote my friend Alex Weller, who, who's, uh, one of the creative people at Patagonia who participated in the series that guides then the actions of the Patagonia, you know, Patagonia, the clo, Patagonia, the clothing brand, and then all the subsidiary companies like Worn Wear and Fletcher Sheard Surf brand and, and all and all that stuff.

Tyler: cereal, the granolas.

Matt: Or Patagonia provisions, all that stuff like that. That, that, that's the, that's the, that's the business bit that makes the revenue. Then that revenue, and this is where I do think what they've done is significant, that that revenue then goes, is disseminated. So they're gonna take what, enough, enough for the revenue to run the company, [00:19:00] but then any profits that are left are gonna go into this whole Fast collective, which is this nonprofit, which then as we've discussed, will disseminate these funds to what, whoever is in charge of that who, which I believe is a guy called Greg Kir, who I'd really love to interview, um, who get, who then gets that cash essentially.

Tyler: And then they have the Patagonia Inc. Which is just the corporation, which

Matt: Yeah. That's the, that's the bit in the middle, which is the main thing. Um, and, and you mentioned the 5 0 1 C four kind of designation, and I think one of the significant things about that is that enables you to make political donations. So hold fast is a, is, is a, is a force, or C four or however you say it.

And that expressly means that they can make political donations if they want, which has, which has been a bone of contention for certain right wing commentators. I think it's fair to say.

Tyler: yeah. I mean, it's, it's interesting, right? Like, well, [00:20:00] that, that whole thing is, you know, it's, it's a, it's a thing that, that you bring up too in your episodes about how oh, that's great that they're doing that. But at the same time, someone on the opposite side could do the same thing. Koch brothers could do the same thing.

Any of these large corporations, giant CEOs, you know, I mean, uh, Elon Musk even, you know, like they all do this stuff,

Matt: well, I mean, I, correct me if I'm wrong, but Elon Musk has been, um, you know, like he's essentially paying people off in, in certain, that's through Pax, right? That's

Tyler: yeah, yeah. Super Pact. Yeah.

Matt: and Patagonia, hold, hold fast. Have made donations to, to packs on the, on the left.

So,

Tyler: yeah.

Matt: so like that, that this, it is the same mechanism.

Tyler: Yeah. And it's. You know, the thing is then like the question, and I, it's interesting, like I was, I was thumbing through Instagram today and, uh, you had a post with Bri who, [00:21:00] oh, I love her. She

Matt: Should be great guess for you, for you Hadam.

Tyler: Oh, yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting. I, the other day I was actually going through some old photos and found this photo of me in, uh, at the peak in Ireland, in Bundoran, and it was taken by her mother who took it and gave it to me.

And I met her when she was a grom,

Matt: I really Oh, how nice,

Tyler: You know, so like, I haven't seen her, you know, it's like 20 something years ago. But, uh, yeah, I would love to talk to her and be like, your mom took this awesome photo of me, you know,

Matt: Brit, the Britains, I mean, fucking Al don't get more legendary than that

Tyler: serious. But she brought up a really interesting question in her post, basically saying, as, uh, earth as a shareholder, what does that mean? How does Earth speak on its behalf besides, you know, besides with like acid, rain and hurricanes and whatnot. Like, how do we know what Earth wants and who's, you know, who has that authority?

That's like the weird thing sometimes, like,

Matt: Yeah, I, a a, a friend of mine, [00:22:00] sorry to jump in, but a friend of mine critiqued the series, um, in the same way he said, do you seriously think that like earth would think that if Earth was making, calling the shots, do you seriously think that Earth would recommend that Patagonia made more clothes?

Tyler: You know?

Matt: Because I think we all know the answers to that, right?

Tyler: You know, it's, it's a, it's a bit of, it feels a little markety, marketing gimmicky at times. That's the, the language of it,

Matt: Yeah. But I'm, I'm just gonna play devil's advocate though, because, because like, and I, I don't have a dog in the fight. Like my, my job here is obviously just to, just to ask que questions so that people that listen to it as the series or listen to this can, uh, reflect and make their own decisions. But, you know, one of the, so I was interviewed for a podcast.

The other day about this, it's a British podcast called The Adventure Podcast, which is like a, an a, an outdoor [00:23:00] industry thing. And he, we had a conversation about the announcement and he, and he said like, why is, why, why is this important? Why, why do you think this is such an important story in the outdoors?

Like, why have you bothered making a three hour series about this? Um, all the wind's up, that was my caravan door.

Tyler: Oh, wow.

Matt: and, um, and he and I said, well, they are incredibly influential, whether you like it or not. Like they are one of the companies that dictate the discourse. Like, like, don't buy this jacket, let my people go surfing.

Like, there, they, there are a lot of Kool-Aid drinkers in our game who absolutely buy that. And, and, and I think for what it's worth, they wear that responsibility quite well. Like for me, because I, I, I,

Tyler: The cut and feel of the jackets are obviously worn very nicely.

Matt: know what I mean though? Like, like they, they, they, they, they kind of, [00:24:00] they're, they're leading the conversation whether people like it or not, and they're doing it in a very intentional way. And as much as, and they're incredibly good at marketing.

Tyler: yeah,

Matt: Like we, like we know this about Patagonia, like, so I. So is, so like, yes, it is it, this is why it's nuanced.

This is why it's interesting, like yes, it is marketed and it is packaged cleverly. 'cause there is obviously just a clever line. Like, but, but if it drives the debate forward,

Tyler: right.

Matt: then, and this is a, a, you know, I got a lot of feedback in the series from people who, who were definitely, you know, to use the phrase again, Kool-Aid drinking, let my people go surfing, carrying like,

Tyler: [00:25:00] Patagonia can do no wrong.

Matt: Patagucci lovers.

And, and, and they were, they were like, I just think, oh, you know, like, it, it's gotta be a good thing, right? Like, and and I'm like, well, yeah, we're allowed to ask questions though, right? You know,

Tyler: It, it's, it's also look like every light casts a shadow. I've, as I've gotten older, I've become more aware of that. Like, you could do something that's really good, but there's gonna be negative consequences. I feel like, you know, there's always

Matt: I'm just gonna shut my door because it's fucking freezing. But carry on, I'm

Tyler: Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, I think there's every light casts a shadow and everyone, there's gonna be negative repercussions to this, right?

Like, someone's gonna see what they're doing and then they're gonna try to replicate it. But it might be to the detriment of the environment or to something [00:26:00] else. Or there might be an unintended consequence that we're not aware of by this decision. Like maybe it's, um, everyone looks at that, that slogan and then thinks, oh, there's just greenwashing or whatever, or they're full of shit and then people become more cynical.

Maybe there's, those are the things I've, I've become more aware of. Like, every time there's something good, I feel like there's something to balance that, you know, co that comes with it to a certain extent. And so that's. I think it's important then what you're doing is asking those questions instead of just blindly saying, yeah, this is great.

You know, uh, it, it sounds all good in theory, um, but it's, it's our job and, and especially you as a journalist, like your job to, to question this sort of stuff. Um, one of the things I, I did think was interesting though is like, at least in the us, the Supreme Court gave corporations personhood basically, you know, like they basically said [00:27:00] corporations have the same rights as people.

And so if that is the case, if we can apply personhood to a non-human entity, uh, I think we're starting to see this rise of treating, uh, nature as, as a personhood or having a say in it. And there's this rights of nature movement that is starting to, you know, kind of evolve where people are suing on behalf of a, of a, of a river or some sort of environmental issue.

They're using the structures in place to help protect, uh, the environment. And that's where I do think, oh, this kind of does make sense. You know, in that sense, if we're allowed to think corporations have the same rights as humans in the US, then why can't nature have, have that extended to them as well, or to it as well?

Matt: Yeah. And that, and that's, I, I, I believe one of the principles, you know, like around the B Corp idea, like I, I, I, I, I [00:28:00] might be remembering this incorrectly, but I do think that part of it is a bit like, well, you know, nature should be a, a stakeholder to use one of the, a hateful, modern business phrase. You know, like, like the, the, like the, you know, this, this, this, like, yeah.

Like that, that should be, and that, and that is very positive. You know, we sort of critiqued be caught from one side. But again, just to sort of flip it, like, I think, I think, I think that is an absolutely legitimate benefit and, and, and good outcome of that. Like if it makes businesses at least consider that, then.

Tyler: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah. That has to be a positive thing, right?

Tyler: One of the things I found really striking though, and really interesting is, is one, like the fact that there wasn't many other options for them to go. Like, like how do, how do, how do we, how, what's the succession plan of Patagonia? And then there's like, what are the options? How do you, you know, how do you structure a company to do, to continue to doing the [00:29:00] things that the, the original owner intended, uh, the company do, but also, you know, keep maintaining.

It's, it's obviously maintaining itself. It has to maintain itself, right? Like. Otherwise there's no money that goes to the hold fast collective to go to these nonprofits. Right. It's um, and, but one of the things that Yvonne Ard said that you quoted was, it was like he, um, I just thought it was really interesting where he said, you know, that you asked him if, or someone had asked him if whether

Matt: Ja, Jamie, Bri Bris, I think. Yeah.

Tyler: yeah.

Jamie asked him like, why not be like an employee owned company? And I found his response a little disappointing, where he is like, he basically says, um, most employees are incapable of running a company. And that really threw me off.

Matt: Yeah. Well that, that,

Tyler: disappointing to hear.

Matt: you know what? That's so funny that you bring that up. Like I, I'm amazed more people aren't brought that up. Actually, you're the first person that I've actually had [00:30:00] say that. 'cause I, I. I even said in the narration, like, this is quite interesting because this is him going well off message.

'cause it's really disparaging. Like he's ba he's basically like, yeah, my employees couldn't run the company. Like they're not capable of it. And I was like, that ain't the corporate comms that you get outta Patagonia. And that might be why they didn't want me to interview him. Um, be because, 'cause like yeah, I was, I was the same.

I was like, wow, that's a really, that's a really blunt comment. And because, and, and, and the reason also it's like an interesting comment is because that is a legit option as, as a, as a, as a, as a sustain ethical outcome. Because like with, with like this whole ESG thing, um, environmental sustainable go like governance is, is, is a key thing.

Like, you know, [00:31:00] people think that. Comp the way that companies can have impacts? Well, I don't want to make a sweeping statement, but like, I, my, my, my, my take would be that most people think that relates to, um, outputs, supply chains, products, profits, but it can also be about the way the companies run. And one of the things that a lot of companies are doing is going employee owned.

Because, because then obviously if you change the dynamic from this is owned by, you know, if, if Amazon was company was, was was employee owned, I doubt they'd be spending sending fucking rockets to space. Like do you know, do you know what I mean? Like, it just changes the dynamic of how decisions are made and how the money is used is my

Tyler: People wouldn't be peeing in, in bottles and dropping 'em on the side of the road, you

Matt: So, so like that and that, that is as legitimate an expression of, of ESG as like, we're gonna move our factory to a place with high [00:32:00] working standards or, you know, we're gonna not use chloroquine rubber, we're gonna use ulac or whatever that might be. So, so I was equally quite taken aback by the blanket dismissal of that option.

And it's just like, yeah, well we can't do that, so we better invent an entirely new thing that involves

Tyler: yeah.

Matt: a committee that's handpicked by me

Tyler: And, and I still kind of have a say until I die, basically. And yeah, I, I think it's

Matt: I am ama, I, I'm amazed more people haven't picked up on that, to be honest.

Tyler: I'm, it's funny, like, I think that's symptomatic of the boomer generation personally. And maybe this is because I worked for my father in his store and felt

Matt: You are not gonna start talking about how Gen Z can't like work, uh, work shy,

Tyler: no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm saying how, and this is, and it actually kind of goes back to what we initially started talking about with the [00:33:00] politicians. Even this boomer generation have been absolutely shit at fucking handing stuff over to the next generation boomers. Like these guys, like, like my dad, I love my dad, but I was there to try to take over his family business, you know, our family business.

And he fucking sucked at handing it over. He did. He said to me. Tyler, if you want to take over this business, you have to take it from me. And I'm like, come on. That's ridiculous. That's stupid. You gotta have to show me. You have to like me into it and like create a succession plan. These are things you do.

And,

Matt: How can I just ask how's that plan worked out for him?

Tyler: he's 83 and he just closed down one of the stores 'cause he needs to retire and he sold it. So he's still got a couple other business, you know, other stores, you know, with

Matt: But, but like, would, would this, would he have preferred at this point that you took it over, do you think?

Tyler: I think, yeah, absolutely. I think he would've, but you know,

Matt: Yeah. No, I, I, I, I absolutely hear, I absolutely hear what you're [00:34:00] saying. Yeah. I, I do. And like, like I say, I, I, for me, that was one of the really quite revelatory things in the, in the first episode, the other thing that I thought was revelatory, which also people haven't really picked up, right? It wasn't his idea.

Tyler: No, no, it's been doing, they've been doing it in Europe too,

Matt: well, not only that though, but like, he, like, like he was, he was front and center of the, I am, you know, I'm in front of this PR wise, we're making Earth our only shareholder. But he, he didn't turn up one day and go like, Hey, Ron, we're gonna make Earth on your shareholder. He, he turned up one day and said, what's gonna happen when I die?

Can you look, come back to me with a plan? That seems to be what happened.

Tyler: Yeah.

Matt: And, and, and, and, and again, I was like, I don't think that's like what's being portrayed in the PR stuff here, really? And,

Tyler: no,

Matt: and, and so, so those, I mean, not that I [00:35:00] think it really matters either way. Like, 'cause all I was trying to do was, was tell the, the story about what actually happened from the way that I saw it.

But I did think that those two things were quite interesting that I haven't really seen much comment on really like.

Tyler: Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting, right? Like he didn't come up with that idea, the idea that kind of actually had already existed. And he just, like you said, asked people to come up with it. And then disdain almost you could you, when he says that there's almost this disdain to his employees almost, which was really weird.

Uh, in it, I was just like, Ooh,

Matt: Yeah. And, and, and that, and that's why I would've loved, so, so I, I, I alluded to the fact that,

Tyler: yeah,

Matt: you know, it was a bit of a weird thing that, that I wasn't able to interview him. And, and I felt it was quite a big problem. Um, like, and like I, I interviewed on a, by an American magazine about this series recently, and the first thing the journalist asked was like, so you didn't get a [00:36:00] schad interview then? that's a problem, isn't it? And I agree. I think I, I think it is a problem. Um, and, and, and like, I, I just had to make a sort of feature out of it really. And Jamie Bris is a very dear friend, and he, you know, he was like, yeah, you can just use my interview, like if you want. Um, and, um, so like, yeah, but I, but I do.

I, I, so I like, if I'd have, I would've been like, that's, that's interesting.

Tyler: Yeah. Yeah. And it's,

Matt: can we talk about that?

Tyler: and, and actually like a lot of employee owned companies have really gone on to be very successful, very nimble, um, very, you know, because you're getting ground up information. You're getting feedback and input from your employees, you know, everyone is able to

Matt: I, I just fundamentally disagree with the contention that like most employees can't run their companies, and I don't even think he says, I think he says, don't want to run their companies [00:37:00] like, we, like, you know, like as if they're like people without the agency to even make that decision. I, I, I just fundamentally disagree with that.

Like, and, and I speak from experience to somebody who runs a company, which is obviously pretty fucking small compared to Patagonia. But like we, we are trying to bring in an employee ownership scheme and like, it is a way of changing the outcome of the business so that the people that do the work get to share the profits.

A but it also gives them, and the word is important agency in the decision making. And, and I, and, and find me someone in the world who doesn't want that in their work.

Tyler: You wanna feel. I've always grown up, like I've, I've learned over time with man in management, like the best results I've ever had was when I gave ownership to employees or gave them, uh, like a chance to prove themselves, giving them responsibility and trusting them. And more often than not, I'm, I'm pleasant, [00:38:00] pleasantly surprised, or really happy about it.

I've had in the past where I think is like, you gotta trust your employees, otherwise everyone's gonna be miserable, you know? And that was like an issue with my dad at work. Oh, we have my therapy session going on here now. Um, but, you know, that was like an issue. And then I'm, I'm in the process of starting a business right now, and, and I'm like thinking long term, I wanna make this a com, uh, a an employee owned company.

I want employees to, to be able to feel that sense of empowerment and feel like they have some sort of control over their life. And, uh, I got into a heated argument with my dad about this. He just, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. I'm like, actually it does, there's all these great companies, you know,

Matt: uh, it just can work. Like, it just, it just, it just can work and yeah, I

Tyler: well, it's capitalism verse socialism.

That's really what it comes down to.

Matt: but I don't even, I, I don't agree it's socialism really. I just think [00:39:00] it's like, it, it's just another business model.

Tyler: It's another business, but it is a socialistic

Matt: well, I mean, it's, it, it, it, it's, it's, yeah. I mean, I'd prefer the term equitable, but, you know, whatever. Um, but, but like, no, but what I was gonna say, or like what I was gonna say is like, when you were talking about, I absolutely agree with what you just said, by the way, when you said that you need to trust people to give them responsibility, but I, I think it's even more crucial and that you've got to allow people to make mistakes.

Tyler: Yes,

Matt: because the only way that you learn is by making mistakes. And like, you have to give people the space to make mistakes and, and, and, and I think one of the, and not can them for it and help them. Learn from it. And then if they carry on making the same mistake, then obviously it's an issue, but hopefully they won't.

And, and like that, that is what, in my experience, like one of the [00:40:00] things that people as they progress up the leadership ladder find really difficult. Because, because they, because you end up, you end up, it's really hard not to micromanage people and call it maintaining standards. Like, and, and, and, and, and ultimately like, and I, I, I, I, I mean that for like, I think people are well intentioned.

You know, I've been managing people for 30 years. Like, I, like, I, I, I absolutely think people are well-intentioned when they do that, but I think, I think you have to like, and it doesn't work for everyone. Like, uh, people that come and work for me, uh, are sometimes like, they, they find it weird that I, that I'll just be like, here's the task.

Get on with it. If need any help, gimme a shout. Like, they're almost like, what? Like, but, but I've just found personally that that is how you get the best outta people.

Tyler: you do. Because they, a lot of times they'll find something, they'll see something that you don't, I [00:41:00] find, you know, like they'll pick up on something that you're missing because you have your vision or whatever, and they're like, Hey, actually if we do this or pivot to this, we can save money, or we could do this or that.

And I, I've found that to be more often than not the case, like the, you know, those are the people who are on the ground a lot of times. They're seeing everything. And

Matt: Yeah, we're, and we're, and we're old farts as well.

Tyler: Yeah. Now we are, yeah. Middle aged

Matt: I'm 48 years old. Like, you know, like, like I, I should not be leading some of the conversations in my workplace,

Tyler: Especially when it comes to youthful stuff. Like if you're trying to appeal to younger people with certain marketing, particularly like, fuck

Matt: like the, the, the, the 26-year-old kids that were with me should very definitely be leading on those things. And I am quite happy to let 'em do that.

Tyler: Yeah. Yeah. It, it is interesting though. The other thing that I, I, I, [00:42:00] I, you know, so I was looking through some of your comments on, uh, substack, you know, which was, which was great. Like, it was so insightful, and I did see this come up a little bit. And I feel like this is something that, uh, I feel like Patagonia doesn't talk about enough or push enough, and I think it actually is really important to the environment, is taxing the rich, taxing the 1%, you know, you know, it's this, I saw a lot of fear of billionaires, you know, controlling the world on your comments.

A lot of people, a lot of Elon Musk mentions in a few comments and things that are happening here. And, and one of the things I felt like was like, Patagonia rarely pushes that concept of more taxing the rich. And, uh, being a billionaire is immoral, basically. And I don't see that, and it, it one makes me think like, yo, Yvonne Bernard is just a capitalist.

That's just basically, at the end of the day, he is a capitalist [00:43:00] and he doesn't really subscribe to a socialistic way of living. And he, but he has a, you know, environmental, you know, he believes in the environment and wants to help the environment, but I also think he's, you know, at the end of the day, a proper capitalist

Matt: Yeah. It's so, so fascinating that isn't it? So like, it's such a fascinating question and, and I think, I think this is where, I mean, there's two, i I, I guess I'll answer this in two ways. Like there's two, I mean, ultimately Evo Ivan is like, he's a bit of a cipher, isn't he at this point? Like he, he, he's a, he's a, he's a receptacle for, for whatever beliefs you wanna project onto him at

Tyler: Totally.

Matt: you know, he's like, he's, he's just is like a, again, when, when I was, when I was being interviewed on the Adventure podcast the other day, the guy said to me like, but you know, he's like, he's not, he's not like other billionaires, is he?

Like, and I was like, well, I, I don't, I [00:44:00] don't fucking know, I don't know him. Like I don't, I've never, I'm, I'm just like forming my opinion of him through like very filtered views like everyone else. Um, and you go a Patagonia and they've got all those stickers everywhere. Like every billionaire is a policy failure and so on.

And you know, there's a guy in episode one of the announcement called David Galles, who's the climate correspondent for the New York Times. You know, he's just written a biography of Sheard

Tyler: Yeah.

Matt: Dirt Bag Billionaire. Like, which, which from the cover, like David Galles is, is, is a very, very highly regarded journalist, but, and haven't read it, but it does suggest a bit of a hagi approach, right?

Like, you know, it does suggest that there's, that it's gonna feed into this idea again that he is like, he's one of the good ones. You know, like, um, and, and so I just think it's actually impossible for any of [00:45:00] anyone that doesn't know the guy to, to, to have an objective view on him. I, I guess is my point.

But what I would say is that, um, your, your wider point about, about that as a potential solution to the problems that we face is very obviously a key topic right now. Like, so, and couple of quick things I'll say on that, like, so, um. I got a friend over here called Callum McIntyre, who's, uh, who's an, he's an activist in Norway, and he's involved with a group called Just Stop Oil.

So he's like on the front line. He is constantly getting arrested. Um, he's constantly like gluing himself to fucking private jets and stuff. And like, you know, he's, he's like, he, he, he's, he, he's like, he's out there doing it, whether you agree with that form of activism or not. Like he's out there putting,

Tyler: need it.

Matt: he's doing that.

You know, he's, he, he, he's for, for metaphor's sake, he's marched on the bridge at Selma at this point [00:46:00] and, and like, and um, and he said to me after he listened to it and he, and he was like, yeah, you know, I mean, I think he really enjoyed the series, but he said like, it's already a bit outta date, isn't it?

Because you know what the present moment needs is not the fucking hold fast collective. And it's gonna take a little bit more than Ryan Gallup writing a, and this is his words, like a, a, a stiffly worded op-ed in Time Magazine. It was a bit like, have you not seen what Elon Musk and everyone on the right's doing, like, you know. Like the, like this

Tyler: a, it's nothing.

Matt: they've brought, they've brought a fucking, they've brought a balloon to a fucking knife fight. Do you know what I mean? Like, um, but then, but then secondarily, like the, the wider topic about taxing billionaires is, is, is, is really, you know, there's a guy in the UK called Gary Stevenson.

Have you heard of him?

Tyler: Yeah,

Matt: So he's now getting traction in the States, isn't he?

Tyler: Yes, he is. Him and Rutger Bergman, you know, those two have been [00:47:00] like, pushed on the front lines, uh,

Matt: and Gary, Steven, that's his like, wealth tax is his whole argument, isn't it? You know, he's basically like, like I actually, weirdly, just before we came on, um, I was on YouTube and the first thing that came up is Andrew Tate, um, ranting about Gary Stevenson.

Tyler: Oh, I love Gary, man.

Matt: And I, and I actually, I actually clicked on it and I really regret it

Tyler: Oh, no.

Matt: I've never actually seen Andrew Tate talk

Tyler: Oh, it's painful.

Matt: Man. It made me feel fucking ill. Like, I was like, I was like, that's, that's, this is this guy that like, all these fucking kids are like influenced by, and this is this figure that is like, I mean, he's, one of the comments on YouTube was like, he sounds like a toilet being on blocks

Tyler: That's really good. He does have

Matt: anyway. Like whatever, whatever. Like, but he's ranted about a wealth tax, you know, he's basically [00:48:00] going like. This guy Gary Stevenson, is talking about taxing billionaires. We can't trust governments to spend our money. Like this is fucking outrageous. Which kind of comes back to one of the points in the announcement, doesn't it?

Like, um, you know, like, 'cause that's the argument that people always use against wealth tax. There's two arguments that people always make. One is, there'll be a flight of billionaires. If you bring in a wealth tax, everyone will leave and go to Tax Haven. Um, and the second point is always like, well, it doesn't really work like that.

Like it doesn't really work that if you bring in loads of taxes, we'll just spend it on, I would love to see those two arguments actually definitively debunked. Like, because, 'cause there must be answers to those questions, I dunno enough about it. But like, those are the things that people always say about that.

Aren't they really? You know, like, oh, you just don't understand economics. Like, you can't, you can't really say that. I, I, I don't know. But those are always the right wing pushback, talking points. And I would quite all like, oh, and we can't trust governments to spend our money. [00:49:00] Um, which is like obviously a, a very different libertarian kind of argument.

But, um, yeah, I, I, I think it it for a company that has stickers everywhere saying like, every billionaire is policy failure, it's quite striking that they don't, that, that

Tyler: they don't push it.

Matt: taxing wealth isn't, isn't part of the discourse really.

Tyler: it's weird, you know, like to before the elections, they'll do like a bunch of ads and stuff saying, vote for the environment and all that without saying like, who they're actually, you know, endorsing or whatever. Which is such, such, to me, I think it's cowardice, you know, like I think it's cowardice as a company to just be like, vote for the environment.

Sure. Everyone can fucking say that,

Matt: see, this is why I really want to interview somebody from the company for a follow up episode.

Tyler: and again, listeners, I fucking love Patagonia. There's nothing, I'm not, I, I'm just being hard on it because I think it, because they can take it almost, you know, like I think they would be happy to [00:50:00] maybe answer some of these

Matt: Well, but this co But this comes back to your point earlier though, which is that they started the conversation.

Tyler: yeah. It's true. It's true.

Matt: They were the ones that put a thing out saying, earth is our only shareholder. So I think you're quite legitimately allowed to, to then respond to that and, and, and, and, and ask a few questions around that.

Tyler: Yeah. Because I'm not trying to delegitimize what they do. That's the thing. Like, I think I. More right wing people and pundits would, would they, they would ask these questions, but in order to delegitimize and then just say, whoa, it's all fuck. So just throw your hands up in the air and don't do anything.

Um, I'm not trying to do that. I want them to be better. I want them to be accountable. I want them to, uh, be able to, uh, promote and inspire change. Like, I think this is great. You, you end this series really answering a little bit, and I'm curious your thoughts on this, like, you know, uh, but, but like, [00:51:00] yes, it metaphorically, it's wonderful.

I think this whole thing, right? It's a great story and it, and it is inspiring and maybe other companies might take that lead and like, you know, with the B Corp too, right? Like B Corp, the intention was really good. And yeah, there are some people who are taking advantage of it, but if you were to weigh out the negatives versus the positives, I'm sure it, it comes out more positive than negative.

And I think the same could be said with the Patagonia making this move. I do think the positives will probably outweigh the negatives to it, but I want them to be better. And so I'm gonna be harsher on them, uh, in the criticism and find the holes so that. This is an opportunity. They can listen to this and maybe answer those questions.

You know, that's the thing. Uh, but do you think, like, what do you think is the, the outcome of all of this, you know, do you, do you feel this is the, the positive thing? Do what, you know, you've done the most [00:52:00] incredible deep dive on this, probably more than anyone other than people at Patagonia, I think. And, you know, what's your conclusion to all of this?

Matt: How do you mean? Like, do you mean do I think their move was a good thing, a positive

Tyler: yeah. Do you think it's a positive outcome? And do you think, do you think it'll work? Like, let's say Yvonne passes away and let's like, look 20 years down the track. What do you think Patagonia will look

Matt: wow. Right. Okay.

Tyler: You know, do you, do we think this has longevity?

Matt: I don't really care about that so much. Like, I think, I think like, I think all I was really, I mean, no one can answer that. Can they, that just like remains to be seen, you know, like that, that, that, that, that is like, I, I think it's broadly a positive thing. You know, I, I, I kind of agree. I think me and you are probably in a similar place from, from like, they're at least [00:53:00] trying to do something.

You know? They're at least u they're, they're at least trying to use their position to implement a change. And, and I think the conclusion that I drew from the se from the series is that, and this comes back to the conversation we had about B Corp, really? Or, or like how you, as individual, can I just think if you, if you want to impact an issue, whatever that is, whether your Patagonia is saying, we're gonna like, make a, we're gonna like, you know, save the planet or whatever, you know, or it's, or it's me and you.

As we slightly discussed earlier, like thinking about how we can live a slightly more mindful life or, or you are a small business who wants to be more sustainable or, or whatever it is. You know, you just, you just have to ask yourself, or, [00:54:00] or, lemme put it this way, I don't think there's enough people asking themselves a truly honest question, which is what actually do I need to do to have the desired outcome there?

Like, and, and like, I think instead what people are doing is like, oh, I'm a sustainable person. I'll become a B Corp. Or like, oh, I'm, you know, this is why the big C like a, a, a topic, we're both passionate about a, a film we both have covered on our respective podcast. This is why the big C is such a revealing topic, right?

Because, because that's the, that's the, it proves the lie of this in the surf industry. It proves that the surf industry has never legitimately asked themselves that question because, because, but they're still out there marketing themselves as sustainable.

Tyler: Yeah,

Matt: But, but they've, but they're, but they're literally complicit in a, in a, in a industrial and manufacturing process that is, is killing people.[00:55:00]

Like, so, so that, so, so if you, you know, if you are the surf brands that I couldn't really remember earlier,

Tyler: Mm-hmm.

Matt: and you are seriously sitting down and going. You know, we want to be a sustainable business. Like what, what, what's the, what's the best thing that we could do? Like what supply change, whatever the fuck it is.

Like

Tyler: Yeah.

Matt: you'd probably, I, I dunno if the answer would be, let's become a B Corp. Like, I, I, I, I think, I think there's probably harder, there's probably answers that require a bit more brutal honesty and, and, and like pragmatism and, and a bit more soul searching. So to, so I, but, and I, and I think for right or wrong, Patagonia have asked themselves that question and they, and certainly there were, uh, motives that were, that were local to them.

Like the fact that everyone's gonna die soon, you know, like, clearly that, clearly that was like a huge indicator in it. But, [00:56:00] but they have, they have done something different. They have gone, well actually we can use this scenario that we're faced with to put a new structure in place and we can put our profits into these places that are gonna make a difference.

And, and, and, and yeah, there people are critiquing that. People are saying like, yeah, but hold fast is run by the shards. And they've appointed one of their, one of their people and it's not very clear. But, but nevertheless,

Tyler: Yeah,

Matt: they haven't just said, well, we're a B Corp and that's the end of it. Or we do 1% for the planet, and that's the end of it.

So, so I, I, I just, this is why I come back to like, you know, when we were talking earlier and you, and we were saying. It's kind of clever marketing, which it absolutely is. But if it's clever marketing that that changes the conversation in a positive way, then, then I, I, I don't mind that because there's so much fucking marketing, which is about smoke and mirrors bullshit. And I, and I'm literally saying like 99, I mean, I work in marketing, [00:57:00] like 99% of, of the marketing that we see in our world is, is just delusional bullshit, isn't it?

Tyler: yeah.

Matt: I mean, it just is like, so,

Tyler: Aspirational, delusional bullshit.

Matt: that's marketing, right? That's just what it is. Like, and, and, and, and, and especially when, when you've, when, when it has a sheen of sustainability and a sheen of, so I, I kind of, if you're asking me what I think, you didn't really ask me this, but that is what I kind of think of it really, you know, like I don't, I don't, I don't wanna speculate about what it's gonna be like in 20 years.

Tyler: sure.

Matt: I think the power of it is that they asked a different question than everyone else is asking, and that is essentially the role that they, that's why when my mate was like, why have you, why do you think this is worth spending three hours on? That's why, because, because they consistently have done that. And that's why people walk around carrying copies of Let My [00:58:00] People Go Surfing. And that's why every time I have a meeting with a new brand for my marketing agency and I say, so what do you wanna get out of a marketing campaign? They say, we wanna be the new Patagonia. And they do. They do. Every time it's like bingo at our place.

Tyler: Well, it's again, like I think it's better than doing nothing. And I think, again, like you said, and I wish I would like them to put this messaging out more like we're asking questions of ourselves. We're doing these deep introspective looks at who we are and they, and they have said that in a lot of the messaging too, but I think that could be even more front and center, because I think. We all need to question ourselves and what we're doing, and we all like, I think it's very important. We don't do that enough apparently. Um, you know, and, and I think that's a, that's something worthwhile for sure. I I really do. I also like, you know, again, like [00:59:00] Patagonia is a company that's constantly evolving and changing and finding things, uh, wrong with their product or whatever, their supply chain or whatever, and they correct it.

You know, it's not like they try to hide it at least, or,

Matt: Pioneer Ulex.

Tyler: Yeah. You know, so I, I, it was interesting 'cause like, I remember after this got got announced, and I, I think I sent you this video of this, uh, comedian commentator Adam Conover in the States who's really good. Like he's phenomenal at poking holes at things and asking really good questions.

And he's very thoughtful and he did a whole video about, you know, Yvonne Cho Bernard. And it, it's like he's got like the full clickbait, you know, thumbnail with lasers coming out of Yvan

Matt: I do remember that. Yeah, I

Tyler: you know, and it's like all billionaires are evil, basically, you know, and, and he, he brings these points out, like of like tax avoidance strategy.

It's a consolidation of power. There's questionable, [01:00:00] questionable philanthropy and a, a precedent for wealthy individuals. Basically. Those are like the key points that I got that were out of that. Um, but then I think it's good to ask those questions, but I also think it's. We shouldn't fully tear it down either.

You know, we shouldn't tear this down because it's something that I think, you know, it's, it's a step forward. At least it's not the end, uh, you know, the end goal for them. You know? Um, the thing I also really enjoyed or thought was fascinating was, uh, a bunch of people you interviewed for this mentioned the new economy.

What this, this could be a tipping point. This could be a thing where we move into the next stage of capitalism or whatever that, that economic system is. Um, I only thing is like, I don't like what are those models? And one of them, I, I know you talked a a bit about was the donut theory or the donut

Matt: Donut [01:01:00] economics. Yeah. So, yeah. So that, so again, that, that was, that, yeah. That was precipitated again by one of the, um, you know, one of the claims really that that, that, that came out of it from Patagonia, like Patagonia were very forthright in saying, like, Ryan, I got a quote from Ryan Geller in the, in the series.

Like, I think what Patagonia have, what the shards have done here is one of the most significant moments in the history of capitalism. That is an incredibly bold statement. You know, that, that, that is, that, that is, that is a punchy statement. And I, and I, and I was a bit like, wow, okay, that is, that is quite a claim.

Um, 'cause there's a lot of people been involved in capitalism over the last 300 years. Um, so I was a bit like, I, so the third episode is really me kicking the tires on that a [01:02:00] little bit really, and being like, okay, is this really a significant, is this really one of the most significant moments in the history of capitalism?

Um, and so obviously that then led to looking into like, okay, well what are new forms of capitalism? Like, what, how are people trying to, who are the people doing the work? And again. For, for the interest of brevity, I decided to focus on one example of that, which was the donor economics theory. Um, and it, it's a little bit similar to the, to the B Corp idea or what I, again, I'm not convinced I've conveyed that accurately, but this idea that, um, we should, so like capitalism obviously is about profit, you know, it's about like the, the, the, it's about growth and profit, right?

It's about the, the role of a business is to provide profit and value and growth for shareholders. And like, if you look [01:03:00] at, so I just read this book, um, that was talking about the industrial revolution in the, in Britain right? In, in the, in the late 18th century. And so the people, I think it was, I think, again, I'm, I'm, I'm just gonna paraphrase without being completely accurate, but it was talking about, you know, the people that invented the products that drove the industrial revolution.

So like the spinning Jenny, you know, these things that like, that, that transformed cotton production and, and, and like,

Tyler: and stuff like that.

Matt: right. But in the, in, in the uk what, what they did, 'cause the UK's, I think acknowledged to be the, the, the, the cradle of the industrial revolution, which was the beginning of capitalism as we know it today.

And, um. And what, what this, what this meant was that jobs that had been, it's a bit like the AI revolution right now to to, to be fair. Like, you know, the, the, the, the jobs that could have been done by [01:04:00] individuals could be done on mass in a factory setting. And, and what some, what some people did, and I think it's a guy called Richard Aright, um, basically realized that this invention could, could enable him to make a fucking lot of money.

Um, and, and, and, and so set up a factory in a very secluded corner of, of, of England and basically filled it with kids. Um, because kids could 'cause, you know, the main, the main workforce in the industry revolution in, in Britain's children because, because like they, they're small, they could get in around the machinery,

Tyler: They're nimble

Matt: they're nimble.

And these kids were working like 15 hours a day and kids were starting work at like the age of four. I mean, can you imagine this? I mean this is, this is what happened. This

Tyler: trying to do that in Florida right now.

Matt: you know, Trump Trump's Trump's read Richard r quotes biography. Yeah. [01:05:00] Um,

Tyler: kicked all the, uh, out, so we need someone to work. Put the kids to work.

Matt: But, but like, but that, like, that is, that is capitalism.

Like, you know, the job of the business is to just make money for the owner. And if it means a load of kids off to it, $50 a day, then tough fucking shit. And, and, and now companies are still making money on the backs of labor in the global south. And the third world, like what I've just described very clearly still goes on around the world.

Like there's a really interesting book called Cobalt Red, which I just read recently, which is about cobalt mining in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Tyler: Whew. Dark, dark man.

Matt: children, children like that. That's the, they, that's the batteries in our mobile phones in, in EVs. So this still goes on, don't get me wrong. But that, and, and tho and those resources are used to prop up the profits of Apple and Hyundai.

And, and so that is capitalism, right? [01:06:00] That, that, that's, that's the job of capitalism, to make money for, you know, and like people in America who are freaking out about their stocks falling are, are, are, are one part of that capitalist equation. So, so like the, the fundamental question then becomes, if you're talking about different modes of capitalism, can you, and this comes back to that contradiction that we were just talking about earlier, can you run a company in a way that doesn't.

Just do that. Can there be a third way? Can there be a, can there be like, you know, product profit and like equity, if you imagine a triangle, like is a third side to this thing. So that's what people are trying to, uh, trying to, you know, Patagonia that are profits are going in this direction. That's one manifestation of that, which I think is a legitimate one.

So what donut economics are saying is that we, we should reimagine the, [01:07:00] the how much profit we need and also what we use that profit for. And the reason that they use this donut metaphor is basically they're saying like, you've got, it's a bit like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like you've got like the needs of the individuals, the needs of society, and the needs of the planet.

Tyler: Yeah.

Matt: And within those boundaries that this, that these circles like create, that should be our sweet spot of like how much money we should try and make and what, what we should use that money for. I, I'm, I'm crudely paraphrasing, um, but that, that's the idea. Like it isn't just about voracious forward movement, extractive capitalism. saying, well, okay, what do we actually need here? You know, like for an equitable society, like, well, people wanna feel safe, they wanna have a good standard of living, they want education, they want to own their own homes, they want blah, blah, blah. Capitalism creates enough money to, to [01:08:00] deliver all that.

So can we, can we just rebuild the thing to do that? And this comes back to the point that I was making earlier about like why employee ownership is an absolutely legitimate manifestation of that belief. Like a lot of donor economic model businesses, and there are a lot of 'em around the world.

Tyler: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Like, that's, that's, they, they look at this and they're like, well, we're gonna become employee owned.

We're gonna, you know, because we're going to, we're gonna use the profits to benefit the people that make the work. And that that changes the, you know, that's not what Richard Arc Wright was doing in the 17th century. That's not what like phone companies are doing on the backs of kids mining cobalt in the Congo.

You know? So, so that, that, that's, that's one approach to changing that dynamic essentially.

Tyler: it, it's, I feel like I. What we lack right now is as a global society, a vision of a future that I, you know, [01:09:00] that we could strive towards or work towards, you know, like I think everything we see now of the future feels so dystopian in, in all of our media and everything. Like I very, you know, whereas I think if you go back to maybe like the fifties or sixties and you would see like the World's Fair and everything was like all about how wonderful the future is gonna be and how convenient and all these wonderful things.

And so it gave like almost something to work towards. It gave people ideas to work towards, and I feel like we are lacking that as a society right now. We don't have this cohesive vision of what a future earth should look like. That is beneficial for all of

Matt: But isn't that like, what, isn't that the whole fucking Trump golden age bollocks is about though,

Tyler: Well, you know what's funny, the tariffs by Trump are probably gonna do the best thing for the environment in the long since Covid. So

Matt: but this is, but

Tyler: consuming less.

Matt: yeah, but I'm like making a slightly serious point there because, 'cause like, [01:10:00] 'cause 'cause you are so, you've just used like the fifties as a, as a bit of an ex, like, you know. I know, I know. And I, I know you're not like specifically honing in on that, but like, um, 'cause you could also say like, you know, an argument people keep making at the minute is like, Francis fuck arm's, like end of history thing, right?

Like 1991, the Berlin w come down, um, fucky Armor writes that essay, the end of history. Basically like we won liberal democracy won. Like, like that, that, that's it now, and we're lucky enough to be of the generation that came of age perfectly. You know, I was, I was 15 in 1991, so my entire adult life until this moment, four years, has been basically like living that moment of like, unparalleled security, prosperity, and, you know, like, it's quite a shock for us, isn't it?

What's going on now? Because we're like, wow. Like you are [01:11:00] what? There might be a war in Europe. Like, you know, like what? Like you're gonna side with Russia like that, you know, this is this absolute subversion of the, of the end of, end of history era for us. Right. You know, Rubio said a terrifying thing. I thought either week where he was basically, he, he said something like, the po we are being blackmailed by the post-war, um, consensus.

Like, and I, I, I was like, fucking hell. The cynicism of that is, is off the charts. Like you, because like, you know, because anyway, that's absolute, um, digression. But my point is like, you could use that as the, the golden age. You could use the fifties as, as the golden age. And um, like one of the really interesting things about the, the fifties thing, Gary Stevenson's really good on this actually.

Um, because, 'cause he,

Tyler: were 90% in the

Matt: taxes were 90%. Yeah. So, and like, and that and, and Trump. Trump basically is constantly harking back to this golden age of the fifties [01:12:00] America. He, there's a great debate of Gary Stevenson with some maga fuckwit who, I can't remember who he is, but, um, but he, he basically says to him, like, you know, they're like, you know, we want to go back to the fifties when America was like, blah, blah, blah.

And he is like, how much do you think income tax was in America in the 1950s? Why do you think, why, why do you think your parents own their own homes? Why do you think there was such federal? Why do you think the roads got built? Why do you think that, that, that the standard of living that you take for granted in America happened because income tax was 90 fucking percent percent, like, you know, and you want to, and you want to take away income tax, like.

Tyler: It's, well, it's, you know, I mean, what it really is, is, uh, I mean, what we are experiencing right now I think is, is, is what's interesting about it, is that it's, um. and Republicans who have said, government can't trust government, can't trust government. I mean, God. Like, it goes back to Reagan where he [01:13:00] said like, what are the words?

You know, the, the words you don't want to hear. He is like, I'm from the government. I'm here to help you. You know, like that was a whole mantra. And they want to privatize everything in this country, which just puts us more and more deeper into serfdom, basically, you know, and puts us on a high speed hamster wheel.

And, you know, it's, it's, and then they get into government, and then they wreck everything. And then they say, well, you can't trust government because it's not gonna do anything good. And you're like, that's because you fucking just wrecked it and defunded everything. That's why nothing works. It's just this weird cycle where people say, government sucks and it doesn't work.

And it's like, well, no, it could, and it do did. It's just certain people have gotten in, gotten in power who have an ideology where they want to tear down this everything, make it privatized, and not have government do anything, you know, and just make the rich richer, basically. And it's, uh,

Matt: Yeah. Well, [01:14:00] John, John, John Alexander. Basically, you know, when we were talking about this the other week, he was like, I, I, I, I've used the word totalitarian a few times on this podcast, and he was like, no, it's not like it's futile. He's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it is tech techno, feudalism. Yeah. Um, ca on the reg, you, you mentioned Reagan.

Can we just say, I'm very much enjoying the Chinese trolling at the minute. Did you see that? They released that video of Reagan slagging off tariffs?

Tyler: Yeah, dude, it's,

Matt: I mean, the Chinese, the Chinese have got the receipts at the minute. It's fucking funny.

Tyler: dude. They, their social is on point lately and, you know, I'm surprised. No. So I, I've been sharing this a lot with people lately, but by the way, listeners, I, I am about to expose myself, but it, it basically was, um, I, there was a movie back in 1990 with Dudley Moore called Crazy People

Matt: Uh, I've seen it. Yeah.

Tyler: And one of the ad, so one of the, it was basically all about being very truthful with the ads, being so honest [01:15:00] with the ads that it worked.

And this one ad was for Sony and it's summed up everything right now. And it's basically, um, Sony owner, the CEO saying, you know, why would you want your stuff made in the us? Caucasians are tall and gangly and their limbs are too loose. Asians are short, they're closer to the product. We know we can be precise.

And basically it shows like a hidden cam of like white people in, in a factory making mistakes, bumbling around being kind of like that AI video that's going around of Americans in a factory that we see

Matt: that's also funny is, is crazy people, the one with like Volvos, they're boxy, but they're good.

Tyler: yeah. Boxy. But you can get laid. You, you may, you know, you can have sex in it, you know, and, and the, the, the slogan was, Sony Caucasians are just too damn tall. And, and I'm like, yeah. And [01:16:00] it's just, yeah, it's crazy right now. And they wanna bring manufacturing back to the US and you're like, dude, I was in China.

I don't think we want the manufacturing back here. And I'm not saying work conditions were fine over there. They were actually really clean, really neat. Really, really nice actually. But, uh, when I would travel from one city where there wasn't factories, and then I would go to the city where there was, you could see the smog, like it was night and day.

Like, it was like you went to a whole new, you know, weather climate and you couldn't see as much and it was hazy. And no one wants to really live in that. And, and, you know, we have to figure a better way to manufacture a healthier, safer way too for people. And just so many things that have to happen, I think.

And we could do it here if they just put money into it instead, but, ugh, sorry.

Matt: Yeah, no, I mean, like, yeah, it, it, it, it's, I mean, we had it with Brexit over air, you know, like one of the, one of the, one of the main consequences of Brexit [01:17:00] has been the farming industry's kind of in like, in a real state because it, you know, a bit like you'll find over there, it was essentially run by, not illegal immigrants, but it was run by Eastern European, you know, like the, the workers were, were immigrants and, and a lot of 'em have just left, you know, 'cause because it's just, 'cause it's like, well, how much do you wanna be told that you are like a drain on the state and that you are the cause of every, so that, that's kind of happened.

And, and the argument was like, well, British people will do those jobs and fucking surprise, surprise, British people don't wanna do those jobs. So like, and farmers don't wanna pay enough wages to make it attractive to British. Well, that business model can't support it. So that didn't work,

Tyler: yeah. And even, even in China, everywhere was saying to me, uh, kids don't wanna work anymore. There's no kids in factories. They don't wanna work in a factories, they wanna work in retailer, be on TikTok. And I, and I was like, oh, why should your kids be any different than ours? You know? It's [01:18:00] like, it really is like, no one wants to be doing this stuff.

And, and, and it sucks that it's being even outsourced into another country and being, the burden is being put on other people. Um, you know, there's gotta be a better way and there's gotta be a better, uh, solution and system of doing this. And, um, and hence like, that's why I say like, I feel like we need a vision in some ways.

Like, what's the model? What's the thing? And helping to put that vision out, which is great. It's giving something

Matt: Well, it's an, it's, it's an idea, isn't it? You know, I mean, I, I do understand my friend Callum's point that it, it, it, it's an idea that was of its time. But, but time has shifted and it might not be the right idea anymore, but it is an idea. But I think you also touch upon an important point, which is that, you know, whatever you think about Trump and whatever you think about the right, generally, like Nigel Farage over here, like all ban in [01:19:00] Hungary, like Hitler, like, you know, they've got a compelling argument for a certain type of person, which is, your problems are caused by these foreign people.

We will solve those problems for you. Like, and like. That is a perennially popular argument that, that, that, that has its moment in history over and over again and what we're not, and like if you look at the movements changed through history, so let's just say like the abolition, slavery,

Tyler: Mm-hmm.

Matt: civil rights

Tyler: Right.

Matt: to take two examples.

Tyler: Suffrages, you

Matt: Suff suffrage, universal suffrage. They were led by very strong leaders. You know, like, like slavery, abolition straight, like fucking Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglas don't really get any more legit than that. Um, civil Rights Movement, Martin Luther King,

Tyler: yeah.

Matt: you know, like pe [01:20:00] pe pe pe people who were basically the best communicators of their generation and we're not, I'm not sure Chuck Sch is up to it is he

Tyler: He's not up to it. Uh, Hakeem Jeffries is definitely not up to it, you know, and

Matt: do, but do Donald Trump like has, like whatever you think of him, the guy can fucking communicate.

Tyler: he's amazing. He's a no, like,

Matt: I mean, he's a di, he is a, he is a, he is a diabolical genius of the form, isn't he? Like,

Tyler: a psychopath. He's a psychopath.

Matt: like if we're, if we're gonna start trading obscure eighties and nineties, film references do, do you know, network, do you know the film network?

Tyler: Uh, with, uh, I'm angry. I'm not gonna take it anymore. Is that it?

Matt: yeah, yeah, yeah,

Tyler: That's the best.

Matt: yeah. I mean, you know, that, that, that there's this, that, that, that's essentially a film about the medium driving people mad, isn't it? Like, [01:21:00] and

Tyler: I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore.

Matt: I mean, he's, he, Trump has proved to be the most diabolically, adept, um, proponent of modern media, hasn't he?

Tyler: He shockingly, yes, he is an incredible communicator. And you know, like I said, I think he's. Psychopathic in a sense where he can turn the charm on when he wants to, and then he can be tough and rough and mean and cruel to when he, when he wants to, and just as long as it benefits him, you know? And that's really it.

Um, I don't know, but it's, it's scary man. And uh,

Matt: How's that German passport looking?

Tyler: it's gonna be a tough, it's gonna be an uphill climb, especially since I've, I've liked a lot of, uh, pro-Palestinian things, so, and they're pretty harsh on that right now. They're already kicking like immigrants out for that sort of stuff.

Matt: Yeah. Well, they don't give a fucking [01:22:00] Normandy, let me tell you

Tyler: Yeah. But I did see a British MP propose a bill that would make it easy for us citizens to get, uh, citizenship in the uk.

So, so I'm, I'm, I'm crossing my fingers for that one man.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tyler: Don't have to learn a second language and

Matt: have you got any plans to come over this side of the pond?

Tyler: not at the time. Um, I know my brother brother's supposed to have like a 50th and I was gonna go, but I don't have the money right now. I'm starting a business and, uh, so I'm trying to be frugal with, with my spending. And, uh, yeah. So not for now, but, uh, hopefully soon

Matt: I need to come over. I need to, I need to probably get a burner phone and come to New York and hang out.

Tyler: dude. Just come on, make it, we'll do a, we'll do a live, we'll do we'll do like something with one of your books too. We can do a whole thing. It'll be a lot of fun.

Matt: Yeah. I need to do, I'd love to come. I've not been to New York for nearly 10 years. I'd love to come [01:23:00] back.

Tyler: this, come in September when the waves are good, the water's warm. This, this surf library is a spare room here for you. Uh, you know, and, and the misses, you know, and, uh, or, or you know, or Owen if he's with you. So

Matt: yeah. Me knowing, keep me knowing. Keep talking about doing a, doing a New York trip and doing a load of interviews and hanging out and yeah, that would be loads of fun.

Tyler: Yeah, I'll sort you out. Uh, I got all the gear here for you so I don't even have to bring it over, you

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. New York's, I mean, I fucking love New York.

Tyler: Yeah, yeah, man. Just, just make sure you, uh, bring some ozempic with you. 'cause afterwards, you know, you're gonna be gaining some weight from all the food,

Matt: Yeah. I don't need any help with that these days.

Tyler: Yeah, true. You're not like me, you know? Um, one last thing, like, just, I want to also touch on like, the process of making this, like how [01:24:00] was this process?

Uh, did you, you know. Was it easy to get these people to interview? And you, you talk about like having some, some success with interviewing Patagonia people, but how was the process in making this and how long did this actually take? Because it's, it's a, it took a lot of time, it seems.

Matt: Yeah. Uh, I mean, it was, it took like two and a bit years. Like, I mean, I've got a job, so there's that, you know? Um, and, um, yeah, I mean, it was, it, it, it, I made it up as I went along, really. Like, I, I, I, like, I didn't, I didn't have a set plan, so I had the idea and. I didn't really, I was a bit over faced by it, you know, like I was a bit like, oh yeah, fuck, that could be, that could be good, but Christ, that's gonna be a mission.

So I didn't really like, make any progress on it. And then I [01:25:00] did a trip to, uh, Gozo, which is a medi Mediterranean island where my sister, like two years ago, probably two years to the week actually. In fact, it's definitely two years to the week. Um, because it's my mom's 70th. It is our mom's 70th birthday.

My sister lives in Australia. And so I was like, look, because mom's 70th, do you wanna come over? And, and she wants to go on a walk in holiday because she likes walking. So we went to an island called Gozo in the Mediterranean. It was great. Um, and, and, and it was what is called a saga holiday, um, which is basically, you know, for people over 60.

So it was a guided holiday, a walking holiday. Um, and you know, obviously me and my sister were the youngest people I by quite some way. Um,

Tyler: you're like, come on, walk faster everyone. You're all

Matt: I do, you know what? I just started great. It was just great. It was just such a laugh. Like it was six hours walking a day around this beautiful [01:26:00] island, great food, hanging out with my mum, my sister.

Like, we hadn't done that for like, probably since my sister left home in like the early 1990s. Um, and so on that trip we had a lot of time walking and I. Jo, my sister was a bit like, you know what you working on? And I was like, well, funnily enough. Um, so I started telling her about it and she, she's my older sister and she kind of like basically bollocks me.

She was just a bit like, so you've got this idea that's really good and you're not pursuing, you know, like why are you twiddling your thumbs on this? Like, why don't you just get on with it? Like, and, and, and I was a bit like, well, I'm kind of, so anyway, so we spent the week talking about it and um, and it was great.

Like, and she, she was like, by the end of it I was like, oh, we should do this together. Really? So 'cause and, and because she comes, as I mentioned earlier from this background of, um, [01:27:00]corporate philanthropy and, and she was like, you are looking at this as if it's a story about action sports and, and the outdoors really, this is a story about, um, all the, you know, she's like, this has to be as legitimate in my world as it is in your world.

Like, I need to be able to play this to people in my world who don't got a clue who vs is,

Tyler: Mm-hmm.

Matt: and they need to take it seriously as somebody who even knows what this thing is. Right. So that, that, that was the first thought I was like, okay. Now I get how I need to start doing this. So, um, so I did it in like three chunks.

I did the, I like, I did the first episode, summer 23 in France here. I wrote it. Um, and then I got back to Brighton and I then out of another very serendipitous meet in Pint with a mate who [01:28:00] is a music producer. And he, he was again, what you up to? And I was like, oh, well I'm working on this documentary and I am, you know, I've just written the first episode and I'm about to start recording it.

And he was like, oh, I'll record it. And I was like, and I was like, oh yeah, okay. And I, and I was like, 'cause I was gonna, because I needed, so, you know, I, I need to think about the soundtrack. He's like, I'll do that. Um, and he's a good mate. So we, so we then spent like two weeks doing that at his house. 'cause he is got a lovely house in Brighton with a great setup and it was absolutely brilliant.

Like, so we did the first episode then. And um, and, and it was one of those things where, 'cause the reason that I, one of the reasons I wanted to do it selfishly was because I wanted to do something that was quite hard, you know, like, like I, I, I, like, I wanted to ch really challenge myself and I wanted to, um, so, and I said to [01:29:00] Ben when we were doing it.

I was like, you know, this needs to be like PBS, like BB, C sort of level. Like, you know, that that's what we're aiming for here. And he was like, all right, okay. Um, so we did that. And then, and then when I finished the first one, I then went and wrote the second one. And by that point I was starting to understand like what it was.

So I was starting to like get, pull the interviewees together. Most of the interviewees just said yes, like I, I, I, I worked with my sister to, to draw up those, that short, that, that list of people I, I had, I had a few people turn me down. always normal. You know what it's like. Um, so then I did, then at the beginning of 24, I wrote the, no, at the end of 23, I wrote the second episode.

Um, and then at the start of 24, I started compiling the interviews for the third [01:30:00] episode. And then I wrote the third episode a year ago maybe. Um, and then me and Ben got 'em all in a, in a, you know, got 'em all in a place. And then he was like, all right, I'm gonna start thinking about the music. Um, so he then wrote the score.

This was probably like May 24 and. Then we were a bit like, oh fuck, how do we do this then? Um, so, so we basically spent a couple of months just piecing it all together, and that was brilliant. Like, I really like working with Ben and, and working with my sister was definitely the most rewarding part of this whole thing, especially working with Ben because it was just like, we both didn't really know what we were doing.

And the reason that he wanted to do it as well was because he, he's a very successful music producer. He's had hit records over here. He is a, he's a, like,

Tyler: It's a big deal. He's a big deal. He is. [01:31:00] Got many leather bound books. He's great.

Matt: but he's ne but he's never done anything like this. So, so he was equally like into it, like, you know, um, and, um, so then we, so then we would do that.

We got it to a point, and then I, and then basically, I, I, I started, I, I, what I, I, what I did was I pulled together a list of people that I wanted to get feedback from because I thought like, I really need to, like, this is needs proper notes. Like I need, I need like people to like really critique this so it can be as good as possible.

So I thought I would like try and control that process. So I asked a lot of friends who I really respect, like Jamie Bris was one. Um, Owen was another one. I got a friend who's a. Professional broadcaster in the uk, journalists, writer mates. And I sent it to them and I said, look, [01:32:00] please take the time to listen to it if you, if you want.

And the ones a couple of people, like, I, I, I, you know, I'm too busy, like blah, blah, blah. But everyone that was like up for it, I said, but if you gonna do it, I just really need honest feedback. Like, and I need you to like, really, I, this is about making it better. So what's, what's not working, what's what isn't understandable.

That was massively important. So then I did, basically did a load of rewrites, um, and, and did a load of pickups, so like rerecorded a load of stuff. And then I thought it was finished in September last year. And, um, my wife basically said to me, um, you gotta redo that first episode. It's not good enough.

Like, and I was like, I was like, oh fuck, really? And she was like, yeah, your delivery's not good enough. Um, and I was like, oh God, [01:33:00] really? And she was like, she's like, yeah, because as I've just explained, that was the first one that I recorded and like. I think, and I kind of knew she was right. Like, like I kind of listened back to it and I was like, yeah, you can tell that I'm groping to find a, a voice, sort of.

And she was like, you know, I'm right. And I was like, fuck, you are right. So, so I I, I said to Ben, I was like, I've got some really bad news. And he was like, what's that? I was like, we're gonna have to redo that first episode. And Fairplay to him, he was like, yeah, cool, whatever. Like, whatever, whatever it takes to make it good.

So then I thought, well, I might as well rewrite it. Um, so I did another, I did another complete rewrite at that point of the first episode, um, which absolutely made it better. Um, and I cut, I cut loads, I cut 15 minutes out of actually, 'cause originally it was an hour long, the first one. Um, and, and then that's when we kind of got to it.

And then I was a bit like, [01:34:00] when shall I release it?

Tyler: Mm-hmm.

Matt: and I just thought, I'm gonna wait till the new year. Um,

Tyler: Yeah.

Matt: so yeah, that was the sort of process really. I, I literally, I made it up as I went long. Like I didn't have a clue what I was doing.

Tyler: What, what, uh, program were you using, if you don't mind me

Matt: Uh, we did all in logic.

Tyler: Do does that, how is the editing and is that like, does that transcribe it for you? And you can use the transcriptions to edit or are you listening and

Matt: Oh, I love this. You're getting so geeky. No. So I wrote this, I wrote this, I wrote the scripts in, uh, Google Docs and I just knew him inside out. So like, I, I, I, um. I, I could, I I time coded everything. 'cause I've written scripts before, so like, I, I, I, I made sure it was time coded so when we were looking at the audio, like the arrangement,

Tyler: yeah.

Matt: I could see where we were and then like refer to the timeline like quite quickly.

But obviously that meant that there was loads of, anytime you deleted everything, [01:35:00] anything on the arrangement.

Tyler: everything around.

Matt: because I remember you gave me like that really, you, I'm sure you told me about Yeah. That and that was quite late in the thing. And I did, I did like, think about that and I remember gonna Ben and said, oh, my friend Tyler's just told me about this program that like, when you make a change in the arrangement, it changes the script as well.

And he was like, really? And I was like, I think we're a bit late. Um,

Tyler: Next. Next one, next one.

Matt: yeah, like, um, I think,

Tyler: so much time.

Matt: think if I was gonna do it again, I think it should have been six half an hour episodes. I, I, I, I think, I think, I think it is quite long for people to listen to.

Tyler: I didn't, I didn't feel like that. I felt like it went pretty quick listening to it. And I definitely had moments where I was like, oh, I'm almost done with this, actually. So it, it didn't feel long to me listening to it at all. Like, I, [01:36:00] I lift, listened to a drive, I listened to it on the subway. I listened to it like just sitting here, like, and I felt like it, it moved, it flowed perfectly and it, uh, and it moved quick.

Yeah. Yeah. And it moved quick. It moved very quick, which I, I really enjoyed. And the sound was great. Like, it, it felt

Matt: did. He did. He did a great job, Ben.

Tyler: it really felt like a proper podcast documentary. And, and honestly, like, I don't think anything has been done like this in, in action sports, you know, not that I'm aware of. Uh, not at least in surfing, nothing has been done in this story format.

You know, like both you and I are used to doing interviews, and this is, this is a much more, uh, labor intensive, much more thoughtful, uh, project for you to do. And I guess the question is like, do you, did you enjoy this process? And do you [01:37:00] want to do more podcasts along this

Matt: Yeah, I absolutely enjoyed it. Yeah. Like I, it was one of the most rewarding things I've ever done. Yeah. Like it was, and, and like I've been, 'cause like I kind of thought it had something interesting to say and Ben, and like working with Ben was like, so rewarding. And like, we both, when we finished it, we were both a bit like, this is actually quite good.

You know, we were both, we were both a bit like. We were both, but like we, you know, we've really thrown everything at this and it, and it's, and it, and it's got interesting things to say. So, so like, from a really selfish point of view, like my memory, I, when I, it kind it, you know, that those relationships with Joe, my sister and Ben, that that's kind of what it means to me.

Like on a, and, and also like, because like I was, um, creatively trying to push myself. Like I, I, I, I did do that. So like, it's very rewarding. And then I've been really lucky that it's, I've, I had this like really amazing response. Like, people have, people have, you know, like you just [01:38:00] mentioned, Ky like, you know, is skis.

Just randomly put an Instagram post up yesterday, sort of with this really long interpretate and I was like blown away by that. You know, like, uh, iss someone I completely respect and, you know, count as a, a, a good friend and, you know, so tho tho those things are just amazing. Yeah. I wanna do another one.

I've got an idea for another one. Um, I think, yeah, I think like, I think there's something

Tyler: off air, you could tell

Matt: No, I'm happy to talk about it. I've talked about it like, um, so, so like, I, I think there's some in, so in the ski industry, um, in the, in, in the winter sports industry, like, I. Tho the, like skew resorts are like the canary in the coal mine of climate change.

You know, like, they, like, they're effectively, like that industry is, is, is at the sharp end of climate change. You know, like resorts are, clo resorts are closing, [01:39:00] um, glaciers melting. And those, those communities and businesses are having to address that. So it's a really great metaphor for, for the way that we're approaching climate change generally.

And, um,

Tyler: it's gonna be real fun when you get to the US stuff like with, uh, the IL group and all those,

Matt: so, so, so there's all these stories. So the re the reason I've got this idea is because, like, I've been lucky enough to spend a load of time in the French Alps, and, um, a good friend of mine, one of my really dearest, oldest, closest friends, like he has, has renovated a chalet in, in the, in the, in a place that we spent a lot of time with, with kids called Maribel.

Um,

Tyler: to, I worked there for winter in Chevelle,

Matt: no way. Right? So, okay, so, right. Do you know Bozel?

Tyler: Oh yeah. Absolutely.

Matt: Okay. This is hilarious. And so, you know, this so, so, so bozel. So I, so [01:40:00] Chris lives in a village called Ilmar, which is opposite course Chival.

Tyler: Yeah.

Matt: And like when I went there, uh, February 24. So we went and hung, we went riding for a week and we were hanging out with a friend of mine, Gavin, who's the guy I was talking about who's critiqued a lot of the announcement.

He's the one that was giving me shit for it not being ground up enough and all that. Anyway, so we were, we,

Tyler: Gavin.

Matt: so we were, so we were, um, so that area of the, of the French helps has got the Olympics in 2030.

Tyler: Wow.

Matt: And, um, when I was there, everyone was talking about the fact that they're gonna build a lift from Boal to Cheval.

And, um, and, and half the people I spoke to were absolutely for it because they were saying, well, it's gonna mean our house prices are gonna go up. Um, it's gonna mean there's gonna be more money in the valley. And the other half were like, it's gonna fuck the Valley House prices are gonna go up. Um, there's gonna be more [01:41:00] tourism, it's gonna get more gentrified, everything's gonna get more expensive.

And I was a bit like, wow, isn't that interesting? Like, that's, uh, that's quite an interesting metaphor for gentrification development. And then the more, the more like I went, the more I looked into it. So Shamini has just so, excuse me, like you've probably been to Sham, right.

Tyler: Yeah.

Matt: So, you know, the Valley blanche is basically melted like the me the murder glass.

Tyler: yeah,

Matt: So like the, the, the, the sort of scale of that is crazy. Like, and I did, I lived in Sham in the early 20, early two thousands. And um, and we used to live under a g Glassier called the g glassy de Boson. And, and we, and where our house was, you could get to that g Glassier like really quite quickly. I went back like 15 years later, that glass is like retreated a hundred meters up the hill.

Tyler: Wow.

Matt: I actually couldn't believe my eyes. I was like, wow, okay. And then we went and did the valley blanche and, [01:42:00] um, so, so shaman you're having to deal with that. Like, I think, I think the, I think the, the Mel used to be able to, like, 20, 30 years ago, gets the end of the valley blanche and basically get to a lift that is now it's, it's literally hundreds of meters.

It's melted. So what, so what they did is they basically put steps up this cliff to get to and, and, and now people can't be fucked doing it. So they've put a lift in to like get from the bottom of the melted glacier to the, to the plate, to the ch. S another very good metaphor for climate change, because obviously what you, what you could do is you could either put a stick in plaster over the thing by building a new lift, or you could Yeah, right.

Cottonwood Canyon in Utah, la gra in, you know, veil. So the series I wanna make is called, would be called the Lift. And it would be about looking at, in the same way with the announcement, like finding all these little pockets of stories [01:43:00] to explore this wider issue, which is how we as people actually address climate change in this, in this very, um, clearly privileged bubble.

But it's, it again at the sharp end of capitalism.

Tyler: It's in, I think that is a worthwhile, uh, project to explore, and that sounds fascinating. I think I would be, oh, man, I would love to listen to that.

Matt: Well, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm where

Tyler: so many avenues to explore, but that's the beauty of it. You could just keep going, you know? You could do seasons of it.

Matt: Yeah. I mean, like, I, that's the idea right now. Like, and I, I've gotta work out, um, like how to pay for that. That'll be, that'll be the next bit.

Tyler: Uh, uh, fucking capitalism. Dammit. Maybe, maybe a ski town, you know, one of the towns, you know, would [01:44:00] want to fund it just to,

Matt: Well, I could, I could do the old, I could do the old tourist board blog, like, Hey, I'm gonna come and make a documentary about your town. And, uh, and not really tell 'em what it was about. But,

Tyler: Um, last question. What's the response been like from Patagonia on the podcast?

Matt: um, I

Tyler: you heard from anyone?

Matt: yeah, like I, so I, I've got, I've got a relationship with Patagonia, as you will know. I've got loads of friends there. Um, my, I think they, I think they've been, you know, they were very kind of good about the fact that they understood that it needed to be like an independent thing that they couldn't really have any say in.

So like, when they understood what I was trying to do, they were a bit like, okay, you just, we're just going to, you just get on with that, you know? Um, they, they, I'm just trying to think. Like, so [01:45:00] my understanding is that like, they appreciate it as a, as a worthwhile contribution to the conversation that, that, like, that's the sort of vibe I've had.

Like, I've had a couple of messages, which are, which have been a bit like, you know, the, the senior people here have listened to it and think it's really good and like, are, you know, like the, the. They get that it's a good piece of work and it's, it's got, it's a valid take on what we've tried to do and they kind of think it's quite accurate,

Tyler: And it's very fair. It's not like, I think it is a very fair piece, you know? And, and the other thing I love of what you did, um, and listeners, I, again, like after this you should go listen to it, but also. I love how you'd then do these little follow ups on each episode where you do a little deep dive, you know, on that.

And now you're doing the interviews, uh, with some of the people you know. And I love that [01:46:00] you are giving us more granular information too, and going and exploring it more. And I love that. I think that's a really nice, uh, companion aspect to it. And obviously if you're a Substack member, you also get access to more private stuff too, which is great.

Matt: sub stuck. Okay. It's all the raised these days, isn't it? Um, yeah. I mean, I think, I think like the

Tyler: That in Blue Sky.

Matt: yeah, I think the follow up interviews ultimately one of the nice coincidences about releasing this, you know, I, I explained earlier like that there wasn't, you know, it wasn't like I'm a record label, that machine tooled a release date or like, I just was a bit like, oh fuck, when I'm gonna put out, I'll put out in January, put out week before the inauguration.

Um. And then lo and behold, a lot of the themes that were in the podcast suddenly became incredibly fucking relevant.

Tyler: Yeah.

Matt: you know, like the, the theme of unelected billionaires as you alluded to in your introduction, influencing the rest of us, [01:47:00] you know, that that is clearly quite a big topic in the states and globally right now.

And, and what I kind of realized was, yeah, those are legit things to continue exploring. So like I just thought, yeah, I just can carry on. I, I've got more to learn. You know, there are more, there are more things to discuss here. I don't need to do it, give it the same treatment. That means you can take years.

I can just do the interview thing. So yeah. I've done a follow up with Carl Rhodes about Billionaire Influence. I've done the one with John Alexander that I'm talking about. I'd like to do one with Barrunde Thurston. I'd like to speak to someone at Patagonia to address a lot of the criticisms that we've discussed today.

Um, I'd quite like to interview Alex Honnold 'cause he's got a foundation about philanthropy. Um, so I'd like to carry on exploring that in different ways. I'd like to interview David Galles about his book Dirt Bag Billionaire and get, [01:48:00] get his take. So I think, I think there's like, it's got legs, let's say.

Tyler: I'd be, I'd be actually interested to hear like, uh, a CEO of someone from another company who maybe expose espouses similar beliefs as Patagonian, what they think of that and looking towards that. Like, like, uh, Tom k you know, from er would be a fascinating person to talk to

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a good shout. Yeah. Yeah.

Tyler: know, so,

Matt: I'll try to get someone from B Corp as well.

Tyler: Yeah. Yeah. That would be really cool. Dude, I, I, I am in awe of what you did. I think it's amazing and I really. Really enjoyed it, and I think a lot of our listeners are gonna really enjoy it. Matt, so here's your time for the shame. Shameful plug. Shameless plug here. Like let, let where, where, where are they gonna find it?

Matt: Oh, sure,

Tyler: How are we gonna get access to it? And, and where can they subscribe to your substack to help fund your podcast

Matt: that, that part, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, thi firstly, thanks so much, man. For the,[01:49:00] for the really, um, I mean, I always love our conversations and also like, you know, you, you, you've clearly listened to it, which is nice. Um, and the kind words like, you know, it, it's nice to feel seen, which is a good thing.

Um, yeah, so my, my pod, you can find it. I'm looking sideways on Apple Podcast, Spotify, all that. Uh, or you can just search the announcement on any platform. Um, my Substack is actually through my website, www dot, we are looking sideways.com. Um, you can sign up as a free subscriber. To be honest, you get most of what I do anyway.

If you're a free subscriber, like there, there are. Perks for paid subscribers, like the behind the scenes, all the behind the scenes stuff on the announcement and, and a lot of other bits. Um, and I'm on Instagram at We Look Sideways, although I'm trying to stay off that hell site at the moment.

Tyler: So hard. It's so hard.

Matt: Yeah. I looked again earlier and I was like, oh my God. [01:50:00] Get off. Yeah.

Tyler: well you got a lot of, a lot of outdoor activity ahead of you for the next six months, so you'll, you'll be nicely unplugged.

Matt: Yeah. I'm back on Audible. I'm back on Audible at a

Tyler: Oh, love audible. So good. Um,

Matt: walks and veg planting. Yeah.

Tyler: I love it. Well, uh, and, and also I just have to say that voiceover guy you got

Matt: Yeah, he was good.

Tyler: Yeah, he is really good.

Matt: You were so fucking slick at that. Like Ben was like, who the fuck's this guy? Like, 'cause you were

Tyler: was like, here are three takes. Here are three different takes.

Matt: bang. One take done. Yeah.

Tyler: I was like, we could go with a little bit more motive or we can go with a little bit more relaxed

Matt: what, like one of the notes that I got was about your voiceovers, um, because you, I had you voicing like Yvonne Sheard quotes at Points and Rick Ridgeway quotes, and one of the notes that I got [01:51:00] was, but that's not actually them. And I was like. Have you ever listened to like the fucking radio?

Like, or, or a podcast like that is a pretty well-worn editorial technique. Like, and he, and he was like, I think people are gonna be confused. And I was like, I, I, yeah. I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tactfully ignore that suggestion. I

Tyler: Next time I can do imitations too. I can do the, I could do the, well, well, uh, well here, I'm Yvonne Ard and this is what, uh, what we're doing here. That's not bad. Uh, it's pretty good.

Matt: But I, I was like, just go watch or listen to any fucking documentary in the world and you will see this technique being used. Um, but yeah,

Tyler: well, uh, they, they probably just, were like, this guy's voice is too smooth

Matt: it was good. It was very good, man. Yeah.

Tyler: Well, Matt, I, uh, I love this and I'm so stoked on it, and God, I just fucking love talking to you. You gotta do this [01:52:00] more just for shits and giggles. Um, but, uh, listeners, please go check it out. It's really worthwhile.

It's a great listen. It's really well done. It moves fast, very informative, and it, and these are things we need to think about and talk about, and I think it's really important that we do. And so please go check it out. And, uh, of course, don't forget to hit like, and subscribe for Swell season and check us out on Instagram at swell season surf radio.

And uh, yeah, we'll check you all down the line soon. And, uh, Matt, thank you so much. You

Matt: Thanks Tyler.

Tyler: cheers.