No More Excuses with Cori Schumacher

Ep. 287 - Cori Schumacher

Speaker: [00:00:00] Before we begin today's episode, I want to let listeners know that this conversation includes discussions of sexual assault, abuse, and harassment, including incidents involving minors. We recognize that these subjects may be difficult or triggering for some listeners, so please take care while listening.

If you or someone you know has experienced sexual violence, support is available through the National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800-656-HOPE. That's 800-656-4673 or online at rainn.org, R-A-I-N-N.org. You're not alone, and help is available. Now let's begin this show.

Tyler: [00:01:00] Hello, and welcome to the Swell Season Surf Podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Brewer. Surfing has always liked to think of itself as a counterculture, a community built around freedom, individuality, and a shared love of the ocean. But beneath that romantic image, surfing has long struggled with some uncomfortable realities: sexism, misogyny, inequality, and a culture that hasn't always been willing to hold its own accountable.

And [00:02:00] right now, the surfing world is facing some very difficult questions. In August, following the Tahiti Pro, a teenage female surfer was allegedly sexually assaulted at a private gathering involving several men connected to the surf world. Among those reportedly implicated is professional surfer and Olympian Alan Cleland Jr.

The allegations have led to suspensions, loss of sponsorship, and a criminal investigation in French Polynesia. While the investigation continues and no determination of guilt has been made, the case has ignited a much larger conversation about the treatment of women in surfing, the responsibilities of the institutions that govern our sport, and the culture of silence that can surround abuse and misconduct.

My guest today is someone who has spent much of her life challenging those very issues. Corey Schumacher is a three-time world longboard champion, activist, writer, a former elected official. [00:03:00] She's also been one of surfing's most outspoken advocates for gender equality, LGBTQ plus representation, and social justice.

In 2011, she stepped away from competitive surfing, turning her attention towards the inequalities she saw within the industry. She challenged the sexualization of female athletes, called attention to the enormous gender pay gap in professional surfing, and helped advance legislation in California aimed at ensuring equal prize money for men and women.

Corey has spent decades challenging sexism, misogyny, inequality in surfing, and now, as the surf world confronts serious allegations of sexual assault, she's involved with No More Excuses, a grassroots paddle-out movement bringing surfers together in solidarity with survivors and demanding greater accountability within the sport.

Today, we're gonna be, we're going to talk about sexism in surfing, the power structures that allowed it to persist, and what the [00:04:00] allegations coming out of Tahiti reveal about a culture that still has a lot of growing up to do. Because loving surfing doesn't mean we shouldn't question it. In fact, sometimes that's exactly what loving something requires.

Welcome to Swell Season, Corey. Really appreciate you coming on.

Thank you so much for having me. Um, great introduction, and I, I love how you encapsulated it with, uh, this idea that, that loving surfing means in, in many cases, holding it to a higher standard than, um, than we've been handed from the past. So I really appreciate the, the opportunity to have this conversation.

No, and it's, it is like if you love something, you want it to be as best as possible, and you want everyone to be able to enjoy it as best as possible. And it seems, it seems so absurd when I think about the history of surfing, the culture, and just the pervasiveness of this that has gone on, and the, the lack [00:05:00] of accountability that has persisted for God knows how long.

I mean, it's, it's just incredible, and it's... I know, I know a lot of guys are, are looking back at things and revisiting stuff that, you know, the media-- Like I have. I've been looking back at videos, media, magazines, everything, and you're just like, "Holy crap, I just can't believe we were fed this shit for so long."

It's, it's kinda unbelievable.

Yeah. It, it really is interesting, isn't it? Um, I remember when I started to do some of the work of, of unpacking or an- analyzing surf media and, you know, around 2011 to 2013, where, um, you know, I, I confronted Roxy, um, with, with over 22,000 signatures backing me around the way that they [00:06:00] were sexualizing professional surfers.

And, um, at the time, I think it had been normalized so much that it was much like a fish in water, right? There's somebody who comes into your space saying, "Now look at the water, look at the water," and all the fish are looking at each other going, "What is this water thing that you're talking about?" Right? So, um, you know, there, there's that. If, if you've been normalized by the, the surf media, if you've been normalized by the culture, it's hard to see. And, um, once you do start to see, then there is the accountability piece. There is the, "Well, what are we going to do about it now?" And I think, um, you know, in many respects, the, the culture has, has embraced comfort and has embraced, um, sticking with the status quo rather than challenging some of the, um, some of the reasons that, that [00:07:00] folks are silent around this.

Um, but I also have to give so much credit to the women who are speaking up right now from many generations of women, uh, from my mom's generation, from my generation, from the younger generations, and the ability to see each other in this moment and for the culture to see us. Um, I think that's why this term a reckoning is now being used.

It's, it feels like, I think there's a lot of deprogramming that has to happen, you know? Um, I think obviously men in general, myself included, we, we've, we've just subconsciously absorbed so much. Like you said, we're swimming in this water that we didn't realize what it was for so long, and I think it's something, you know, I think it's, it's obviously, it's an evolutionary thing that we have to [00:08:00] constantly keep ourselves in check and keep looking and being like, "Oh, that is, oh, this is not okay."

And even, even stuff where you think you've, you've progressed and then you look back and you're like, "Oh no, this is actually, that was even wrong," you know? And, and it's like this constant growth, hopefully, that, that we can experience. But it's also, you know, the, there's just the institutional things I feel like that need to be changed, and that is probably the hardest thing that, that we are up against with this.

And I'm curious, like, first I wanted to ask, like, you know, you've spent years challenging this, and when you first heard about these allegations coming out of Tahiti, were you shocked by what you heard, or did it feel like a reflection of problems you have been warning the surf industry about for years?

Yeah, great question. [00:09:00] Um, first, hearing about it, I had a great deal of, of grief, right? Because-- And, and this is something that, that a lot of women, um, have been talking about with each other, which is that, number one, good for this young lady for coming forward, um, and, and bringing the allegations. I think that's, that's super important and very courageous.

Um, the second thing is that, um, it, it's pulling up a lot of memories for, for a lot of women, and that in and of itself is, I think, its own sort of isolating, strange thing that's happening. But it's not a moment where any of us are feeling surprised. Um, I myself do not feel surprised by this, and to some extent sometimes, you know, some of the work that I did earlier [00:10:00] felt like I was a, a Cassandra.

I was saying, "This is what is to come," not being heard, and then in this moment it's like, okay, well, you know, here are all of the behaviors that, like breadcrumbs, lead to this eventual incident or have led to these eventual incidents, uh, and now it's in the public eye. And I think that's, that's what's really, um, uh, causing the f- the, the, the furor in the, uh, surf industry because somebody had the gall to step up and bring this to public awareness because for a long time, all of this has just been simmering beneath the surface.

So not surprised, um, very expected, still a lot of grief around it, um, and I think the silence from certain people is, um, pretty deafening. But, uh, the speaking up of, of-- and the co- [00:11:00] the courage of the, the women who are speaking up is equally deafening. And, um, you know, we're-- we see each other across the distance.

We're connecting in ways that we've never connected before, and, um, it's time. It's time for this, uh, it's time for the reckoning.

You've been surfing for a long time, like me, you know, not to age ourselves. Um, but, you know, I'm curious, at what age did you first recognize this disconnect between surfing's ideals of freedom and the equality and the way women were actually treated? You know, I'm curious when for you it became this like, "Oh, I'm not treated same as everyone else, and I am almost a second-class citizen, unfortunately," the way that the guys and the attitudes and the in- the industry treats people and the magazine's exposure.

Um, [00:12:00] you know, I'm curious like at what age did that hit you and, and how did you internalize that?

Yeah, great question. Um, the first thing to, to note is that I, I was around surfing competitions and surfing since I was five, right? Um, really earlier than that, but I started surfing when I was five. I started competing when I was eight years old. Um, so I watched my mom, for example, compete in the OP

by the way. Holy crap, your mom

still surfing.

ripped so hard, by the way

So, uh, yeah, she definitely does. Um, so, you know, I, I'd been in and around the, the surfing competitions, and I remember hearing my mom talk about it and my dad talk about it, talking about the judging and this and that. And the way that they talked about incidents in surfing was very much an over there problem.

Um, it was always a problem that was individualized or personal to the person. [00:13:00] They were the problem. And so I took that for granted as I started to get more deeply involved in surfing, and I internalized that if anything went wrong, it was most likely due to some type of behavior that I had. Um, and the, the moment that I realized that there was a massive disconnect, um, and really was just like what, what the-- sent my head spinning was, um, I had been signed with a company, a Japanese company for sponsorship.

And back then, you know, it was nice to have the sponsorship, and it was good to have that money to travel. It was the only way I was able to travel with, um, with the, the professional shortboarding tour, although they had sponsored me to, to be a longboarder. And at a certain point, Rip Curl, I had Rip Curl approach me, and we started to have conversations around a sponsorship.

Um, [00:14:00] and it would've been huge. Rip Curl was a company I loved. I loved the concept of the search. It was, you know, it was a core surf brand, right? It was legitimate, uh, in, in the eyes of, of the surf world. And I walked into a meeting by myself when I was, um, 17 years old, had just started driving, and, uh, walked into a meeting with a guy in, in, in San Clemente, and he, he said to me, "Okay, well, you know, if you're really serious about this, we're going to need for you to drop all of your sponsors and really commit to, to Rip Curl, and I'm, I'm gonna need to see that."

And so, um, he did that, like, for two more meetings and was asking about photos and was asking about my weight and was asking different things that just seemed kind of weird. And so I made the choice to drop the sponsor that I had, which was a good sponsor. It was a Japanese sponsor, and went back in and said, "Okay, you [00:15:00] know, I've, I've, I've met this expectation.

You said to do this, you said to do this, you said to do this." And he looked at me and he said, "Well, I don't know what I-- I don't know what to tell you, but I just wasn't able to get you the sponsorship, sponsorship. Sorry about that. You can keep the wetsuit." And he basically coerced me into dropping the best sponsor that I ever had, and I walked out the door with nothing, with no sponsors whatsoever.

And, um, so that was my first experience of something was amiss. Something, um, wasn't, wasn't right. And I didn't, I didn't necessarily connect that to anything other than this guy was just a, you know, not, not a good guy, and, um, I had made the bad choice. I had made a mistake. I should've been more, um... I should've been smarter.

I should never have done that. So that was my first inkling. Um, prior to that, and, and by inkling, I mean [00:16:00] that there was something wrong in the water rather than it just being me. Uh, because prior to that, anything that would go wrong, whether it was not getting a photo in a surf magazine, being told that I needed to smile more in order for the photographer to be interested in the photos I was taking, or for the, for the magazines to, to, to publish, all of that had to do with me.

It was all my fault, so I hadn't-- I just had blinders on. That was the moment, though, where I was like, "Oh, oh, I just got screwed." And it got worse from there.

That's crazy. That, like I just can't believe that that would, that it... No, not that I can't believe. I believe that. It's just, it's mind-blowing how this industry has gone on like that for so long, and I'm sure... I mean, that's happen, you know, that happens to, you know, both men and women that has happened [00:17:00] too as well.

Just they take advantage, particularly of younger people, it seems like. And the surf history, surf culture is littered with so many child prodigies that never made it and were discarded, and there was no accountability, no responsibility whatsoever on the sponsors who whisk so many of them away at such a young age, and there's nothing to protect them, which is crazy, too

Yeah. It seems like it's a lot better now with more, more oversight of, of the teams that are traveling with, with the, with the groms. Um, but, but honestly, there's, there's-- the exploitation has always been there. These athletes are being exploited, and there's obviously an unequal distribution of that exploitation based upon whether or not you're a woman, you're a surfer of color, what your, what your, you know, income level is coming into the sport.

Um, but the, the [00:18:00] entire, the entire sport, and I, I segment surfing from the sport as it has been crafted by, uh, the ASP precursors in the, in the surf industry. But it is built around exploiting the athletes. Um, to this day, the WSL is not, uh, it's not a sports league. It's a media organization. It's, it's-- That's all it is, right?

So the, the-- I just, I have such a, I have such a heart for the, the kids and the athletes who are chasing this dream. I, I never wanna say, like, don't do it, but it's, it's such a, it's such an exploitative environment

It, it feels like, I mean, one, I mean, the WSL has a disparagement rule, which they will fine you or kick you out if you say anything that goes against the league. So speaking out is already intimidating, uh, in itself. You know, just pointing out if anything is wrong, you could [00:19:00] lose everything, your whole livelihood.

And that, and, and from what I've read, like in that "New York Times" article and "The Guardian," like that is something that most other leagues don't even have, you know? Like that's, that's very unique to surfing, which is kinda wild. I...

So interest- interesting about that, I actually wrote about that in 2012. So the ASP had that, had that rule. It was Article 151 in the ASP rule book. I wrote about it in 2012, back when, uh, Bobby Martinez, the whole debacle

gonna bring that up.

Yeah.

That happened here in New York.

Go Bobby.

Seriously.

Yeah. So I, I dug into that and I, I delved into it.

But again, I mean, like, th- like, the surf industry is telling us who they are. Every step of the way, they're telling us that, that they are all about constructing an image, and it is a full construct. It is a, it is a [00:20:00] constructed image for one purpose and one purps- purpose only, and that is to make money for the people who are the owners of the surf clothing factories, the media, and the, the WSL itself.

So yeah, that, uh, that, that rule, which isn't-- You can't disparage the WSL, you can't disparage the, the judges only. It's, it's the sport, the image of the sport itself. They, they manage the entire image as they have constructed it, and they've constructed it based off of a response to a little book that was published in 1957 that became a movie in 1959, and it was Gidget.

That's so crazy how that go- how tho- the stereotypes and everything goes back to that. Isn't [00:21:00] that kinda wild? Like, our whole pop culture understanding of surfing can be traced back to Kathy Conner, Conner's experience, basically

Uh, and the rejection of the culture being told through the story of a 15-year-old rebellious little surfer girl, which is why Bruce Brown crafted "The Endless Summer" and sent those two guys off, Robert August and, um, oh, I can't remember the guy's name. Love, help me out with that. Um, the two guys, 18-year-old and 21-year-old,

Oh my God, I'm

sent them

for this now.

yeah, sent them, sent them off to Mike Hynson

You might get... I know. Brain fart there. Sorry.

sent them off to go chase for the perfect wave, right?

A full-blown homosocial, new communal formation in the surfing world that was created as a foil to Gidget. So it's a [00:22:00] group of men versus one 15-year-old surfer girl, and that became the gender tension that gave rise to the surf culture. It's literally baked into the very fabric of our culture, that tension. Wow.

That's crazy. I was reading that article you wrote about that, and it, it's, it's fascinating to think about, like, that we are still paying for that, that we are still struggling with that. And do you-- I gotta ask, like, do you-- how intentional do you think Bruce Brown was with that then? Like, how intentional was he to foil Gidget?

Just to, to kinda hear you explain it for, for our listeners.

Yeah. So it was ex-- it was very intentional, right? It was all [00:23:00] men as opposed to the, the female version, right? Or even just the, the heterosocial beach blanket bingo, you know, even previous to that, the Hawaiian, you know, adoption of surfing is, is something that, um or the Hawaiian way of doing things, which was very mixed as well.

Um, so this was the first time that a group of men became this, this new formation, this new social formation in surfing, and it, it had everything to do with the fact that it was, that it was girls, that it was a girl. Um, second, it had to do with the commercialization that was happening through the film, right?

So it was, it was a rejection of commercialization. It was a fleeing from the, the Malibu area and all of the commercialization that was happening, right? To find the pristine, pure wave, right? Not the spoiled wave of, of Malibu, as it were, that had been spoiled by, [00:24:00] uh, a 15-year-old girl. Um, and then to, to watch that movie and the movies that followed and that, that, um, that used it as a formula, you always had the, the bros that were going off, and then you'd have these splotches or these sprinklings of, of women just to make sure that you knew as the viewer, now this isn't-- like we're not gonna let it get into homosexuality.

It's just about, it's just about rejecting women, formal relationships, formal family relationships. But, but we're not gonna go so far as to keep it only men, right? That's, that's too dangerous because, um, because again,

homoerotic for their

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So it was, it was very-- it was a very intentional foil. It was everything that Gidget was not.

It was male. It was, it was outside of [00:25:00] the, the surf scene. It was not commercialized. And to this day, you know, it's really interesting to think about how there's like these conversations around core and how, how that c- that continues to sort of like hold the, the, the true masculinity as it were. Um, or even like a big wave surfing, you know, like keep, keep the women out.

Like we need to have our homosocial spaces, these all-male spaces. Um, it can't be, it can't be, uh, spoiled by women coming into our spaces. So it's, it's very odd. It's the way, it's the way it was crafted.

the way the women were portrayed in those films as, as arm candy or accessories, uh, in itself, you know, which, you know, then every subsequent movie after just kept doing the same for the most part. Maybe there would be a, a section where they would show Margot Oberg or someone else, you know, that could kinda surf, but even then it was [00:26:00] still quite, um patriarchal how they talked about them.

It was very much like talking down and very much not as an equal footing, basically, uh, of how they portrayed them. And that then get, got portrayed into Hollywood, uh, you know, where you saw in like "Big Wednesday," it's like the perfect example. Again, like, this very masculine portrayal of men, and John Milius is just a full-on misogynist , you know?

Like he is, he is, you know, totally that, that, that person, you know. Full right-wing, full, full-on, you know, just belittling as well to any sort of liberal or progressive approach to the world or outlook, you know? And in just, you know, you see that to "North Shore," to, uh, you know, [00:27:00] uh, "In God's Hands" and everything in between, you know?

And then it's, it's really fascinating to, to see how women have been portrayed throughout our, our history. And also, like, we've mythologized men but not women in surfing either. I had a really interesting conversation with Bonnie Tsui, uh, in a recent podcast where we talk about how there's this lack of mythologizing on women in sports, and that really does play into how people see themselves in, in the pursuits that they're, they're going after and inspiring others as well.

No, that's actually really interesting. Um, that's, it, it's, it's fascinating. And I wonder how much of that work is, is in service again of this This portrayal of surfing and the men who surf [00:28:00] as something to keep To keep, uh, uh, to keep control of, right? I, I, I find it really interesting to think about surfing in relation to other sports, right?

I-- and I, and I don't mean to... There's the competitive side of it, which is hierarchically structured. But when you go out to surf, everything is fulfilled. Like, like when I go out to surf, everything, all of my wants, my desires, my, the, you know, that go, go, go, it's just, it's satiated. I, I feel full. And there's, there's a v- there's very few other activities that you can say that about.

Rock climbing, for example, might be one. Um, but in order for surf industry, for the surf industry to make money off of this thing that we do, it has to constantly add layers of separation [00:29:00] between the thing that you're doing, surfing, and the thing that y- that they want you to buy, right? So they have to, they ha- they have to get in the way of the activity itself and constantly place, "Well, you gotta have this.

Well, you gotta be-- you, you gotta get the camera. You gotta tell the story," right? Because if you, if you just strip it all away, you don't need anything but maybe a wetsuit, some board shorts, and, and a board, and then

theoretically, you actually don't need any of that. You could just body surf and still get that satisfaction at the end of the day

Right. So I wonder how much of all of this is just a way to capture our desire simply to surf and reorient it towards something that they want you to buy, to make you feel not man enough, right? To make you feel not good enough, not, not woman enough, right? And, and that's a model that marketing outside of surfing has used, the beauty industry has used forever.

[00:30:00] But I, I wonder how much of that is also in s- in, at play in surfing with the surf

Oh, I mean, you go back to even, like, '60 ads, you know, of surfboards, you know, Da Cat models, and all of these things. They're really... I mean, the Mickey Dora ads are kinda ridiculous, you know? I mean, so many of them portray this image. Or I look at, like, David Nueva, you know, holding, you know, that pose with the, kinda the, the, the towel over his shoulder or whatever.

He looks like he has a cape, and he's holding a board, and there's, like, his kinda min- minions behind him, next to him, you know? And there's, like, all of these, like, kinda imagery to-- Or Gerry Lopez even, like, w- again, like, there's this mythologizing that goes into it. And there's this, you know, the telling people, "This is the style you need.

This is how you need to look. This is the, the approach you need to take. Um, these are the biggest waves you need to surf." I mean, [00:31:00] shoots. Like, I still feel a whole bunch of angst when surf gets well overhead here, and I'm like, "All right, I gotta go out and surf. I gotta prove something," you know? There's-- I've been so conditioned in some ways, um, where I can't just sometimes always just enjoy the act, you know?

It's, it's a, you think you have to do more, see more, travel further, uh, explore, find a perfect mythical wave, you know? The, The Search is a prime example of that, you know? I mean, all of those things. It, it's capitalism.

Yep. And within that system, as you're describing it, one of the, one of the rewards for the, the men's side of things are women.

Yeah, absolutely

mythologizing women, then you take away the reward from the men's side of the story, right? So there's-- So the [00:32:00] women have to remain in this really weird sort of adjacent space, as you mentioned, as an accessory to the, the search, to the search for the perfect wave, right?

A woman who has her own subjectivity, a woman who has their own thoughts, feelings, perspectives cannot work within the mythology of the, the hero's tale as it has been defined by Joseph Campbell in "A Thousand Faces" and

One of my

Curl and, right? So, and, and this is what's, what I find really interesting because I don't know if you like horror movies, but, but one of the things that I find really fascinating now that we're starting to get into different genres of, of like body horror with women, right?

Whether it's "The Substance" or "Suspiria" or some of these other like really like monster movies that, that are more of like tailored toward the female gaze, is the wild difference [00:33:00] between how, how women are experiencing different horrors versus the same story that we've been peddled for years and years and years.

And I always thought that if there were enough women in surfing, enough surfers of color, enough LGBTQ surfers, that we would start to see really interesting transformations in how we told ourselves stories in the surf culture. And it's interesting that right, I think, at the precipice when there's becoming-- After COVID, there was a huge amount of people who entered into the lineup.

Now some estimates place the total population of women surfers at 40% of the total population of

gain,

It's huge. And might be, it might be the tipping point [00:34:00] moment is when we all look at each other and realize how many of us are out here. This might be that moment. And so the, the silence right now from the, the men's side of things is also creating a vacuum, is allowing this vacuum into which there are voices being poured.

And I'm really interested to see what the next five years looks like. Um, and I, I wanna hear from those voices because surfing hasn't even come close to what it will become in the future

Well, I think like, the, over the last 26 years or so, there's been a democratization of surfing. Now, the, the surf media and the industry has kinda lost control in some ways of the image because everything's more affordable to make. I mean, I'm, I'm making a podcast here in New York, and I [00:35:00] can reach a lot of people.

I don't have to work in the industry. I don't have to have a connection to the magazines. I can just do this and for really under $500, buy the equipment that I need. And I see that, you know, as, one, that, that was the downfall of the industry because the industry was too slow to pick that up and understand that it can't be a top-down situation anymore.

It needs to come from the bottom up. And now, you look at Quiksilver, Billabong, I mean, they're all owned by one private equity company, and they're not nearly as nimble, and they're not nearly as cool. Like, people don't look at them and think, "Wow, Billabong's cool." They think, "Oh yeah," you know. I mean, sure, there's a little trend of early 2000 right now happening, but they don't have the power that they once had.

But they still act like they do, which I find kind of amaze- amazing. The, the fact that there is no surf magazine really anymore. You [00:36:00] have, like, "Surfer's Journal," but they'll never get political or never touch anything that's controversial. They're, as self-described, they're just candy for surfing, which is fine, you know, that's what they want.

"Surfer" does one issue a year. "Surfing World" tends to do a pretty decent job, but if you look at the landscape, like, there's really nothing out there, and there's an opportunity right now for people to tell their stories. And you see that with, like, Ebony Beach Club and those guys, and you see it here in New York.

We have La Rubia, which does incredible stuff, you know, and, and are really diversifying the lineup. We have the Bennies Club. We have, uh, Yeastie Boys, which is for mostly women to come out and surf and feel comfortable here in New York. And you have these things popping up all over the world. And I think there's opportunities for sure, and it's definitely happening.

I think, um Where what we're missing though, I do feel, is a [00:37:00] legitimate, uh, journalistic pursuit of surfing. I feel like there's no proper investigative journalists like you would have in many other sports, and no outlets for them to go to, to really cover this. And we're, you know, it's amazing that New York Times picked up this story and other outlets, but there needs to be more, and there needs to be more digging 'cause this is definitely not the only story, as you've said.

There's lots of other women coming forward, and those stories deserve to be told. And it's not, you know, they're being t- shared on social media, but there's no real excavation yet, and I think that's really where we're lacking and missing right now to help drive the narrative a bit more further.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I, I also wonder how keeping surfers chasing dreams separately, right? Chasing as influencers, chasing [00:38:00] the money, chasing, is, is also a way to sort of increase the stakes with, with competition. I mean, surfing, the surf industry through sponsorships always treated surfers as if, you know, they were a, a, an endless infinite resource that can be easily replaceable, right?

They tr- they treat it, they treat you like

Yeah

And so there's, there's an incentive to keep quiet. There's an incentive to not, not, you know, shake the, shake the foundations. Um, so it, you know, it-- In some ways it's, it's hard because it's like you kind of have to attack the dream, right? You, you have to, you have to expose the, the emperor and, and show that the emperor has no clothes.

Um, which, which can be really damaging for, for kids, you know? I mean, Santa Claus isn't real, guys. I'm sorry, but

Your favorite surfer is a jerk, actually. Sorry to tell you. You know?

Because, because, you know, over, over the decades, I think that the one thing that all of the focus on the image of surfing has done [00:39:00] is it's created this wonderful vision of, of what could be, right? Everybody wants a dream that has to do with liberation and freedom. Um, but I think to your earlier point about, you know, that's, that's what capitalism sells.

And surfing has been, um, in some accounts has been the extension of manifest destiny, American manifest destiny, right? It's like the Western cowboy reached the end of the ocean and became the, the, the, the free surfer and gallivanted off into the Pacific, right? And so surfing and neoliberal capitalism and what it sells and the fact that you can never reach what it promises is the, um... That's the, that's, that's what's behind the, the curtain.

It's true. And the thing is also, like, there's, it does no one any good, you know, both men and women. That's the whole thing. Like, this is actually, you know, really tragic for, for, for the men as well. You [00:40:00] know, we're, we're stuck, we're stunted as far as growth and s- and not able to really achieve the things we wanna achieve either.

Like you said, it's never fully attainable. You know, even the guys on World Tour, right? Like Filipe Toledo, who's one of the most phenomenal, decorated surfers ever, and he still, you know, deals with depression. He still deals with a lot of emotional issues, you know, and the pressures that he faces. And, you know, the fact that he may not be known as, uh, as proficient in bigger waves, and he gets dogged by that and harassed by that online in the comment sections.

It's, it's, it's really awful, and he's, you know, portrayed as less than in, in the media because of that, even though he is absolutely insane, you know, as a surfer, and someone who's actually quite in touch with his feelings, which I [00:41:00] think is a great role model and not, probably not, uh, exploited enough in that way, you know, or shown, you know, that other men can do that, you know?

I think you bring up a really good point, and I, and I wanna-- I just wanna take a moment and say that, that the, the organizing principle that you've just now highlighted both women and men within the system, right? And the organizing principle in these systems use shame, humiliation, and finally violence. And everybody is subject to it, depending on where you are within the hierarchy, right? And, and that's one of the things that you may have read this I wrote earlier, but, you know, I, I do-- If, if you are constantly humiliated and shamed as a matter of how you're relating in your, in your relationships, and you have these vulnerable parts, all of us do, it doesn't matter what your gender is, all of us do. And y- you have nowhere to take [00:42:00] that vulnerability, um, that isn't going to get you further humiliated, what do you do with it, right? Wh- where, where does it go? What do you do with it? And, and I think you're, you're bringing this up, and I really appreciate it because in many respects, the work that I have done, even though you hear me, coming out of my mouth all the time is, you know, women's equality, you know, it is because this type of organizing principle uses as its target women in the majority.

Not always, but in the majority. But, but it is an organizing principle that has at its core the control of men. It's m- it's meant to control men at the expense of women. And so I think about that a lot. I, I really do because I-- it's, it's what gets men killed,

Yeah. Well, I

and women.

could, again, like, we can look at the whole history. I mean, you got, like, people like David Eggers, who was a prodigy, went on tour at age 16, [00:43:00] 15 or 16, and self-destructed before he was 18 and, and sadly passed away too soon. Um, in research for this, I was even looking up, like, Adam Ripolgo from Santa Cruz, phenomenal surfer, made it on the, on the CT, was sexually molested at age 12 by a surf coach or surf team manager, you know?

Um, and he couldn't tell anyone really, and had to live with that shame, and drove him to drink, and drove him to do self-destructive things. And God, there's so many of them in that, in that, uh, Santa Cruz crew actually, where there was this bravado and machismo, you know, that they couldn't show emotion, and look how s- destructive it was.

You know, they all got, had issues with bouts with meth and other drugs and other addictions because of that, you know? And that doesn't serve anyone.

Right. That's-- I remember Adam, and I had no idea. That's really unfortunate to hear.

[00:44:00] Yeah. I, I, I, I just found that out. I was just reading in, in research for this, and I just, I was like, "Holy." And that, that came up in a podcast a few years ago and, you know, and that wasn't even the first time. He, he had been molested when he was six too. So it was just absolutely tragic, you know? Um, and, and I'm pretty sure there's, that has happened.

I mean, there is the story of some, a famous surf journalist doing that to, uh, you know, a photographer who did that to a ma- another male, you know, a surfer. And there's, it's littered with all of that stuff

Right. So who do we hold accountable, right? It's like at one point I remember, everybody remembers this, the Association of Surfing Professionals, WISP was called the governing body. What does that mean? What does that mean? Does that mean that I can go to the ASP or the now the WSL and ask of them to [00:45:00] hold accountable anybody within the rule book that they have?

And, and I think that's, that's one of the great things about The, The Athletic and The New York Times article is they, they wanted, they wanted to know about this question of accountability. Who do you go to? And I think in some respects, uh, I'm not a, a fan of the Olympic movement in surfing. However, I think there is actually some structure there within the Olympian, at least the Olympic Committee, where you do have accountability up the chain.

Now, there are gymnasts who will absolutely tell me that that is not true again, right? Um, and, and, and so there's this question that constantly swirls around, around who, who ultimately is responsible when systemic behaviors like this start to pop up, where it's not just a one or a two, it's, it's a, a whole back history of it.

And I think that's really an, um... You know, what do we do about that? Is it something that needs to come from the [00:46:00] inside? Um, is it something that individually we need to grapple with? Is it something that is endemic to the culture or to something about surf photography? Um, you know, i- is it just older people traveling with children?

You know, all, all these questions are questions we should be asking. I'm not saying I have the answer to them, but the quiet and the silence does not serve even asking the questions that need to be asked in order for us to progress past this point.

Well, what's crazy is there's no real route for someone to make real complaints at the WSL. I mean, Lucy Small said in that "New York Times" article, "Oh, I just got the memo last week." You know? It-- there was no real structure for that, um, t- in the WSL. The ISA has something at least in place, um, but the WSL didn't really have [00:47:00] anything for that.

And not only that, you have a junior tour that is with it. You have the Rising Tide organization that's, that goes to all the WSL events, where there are young girls being, you know, corralled with pro surfers, both men and women, and who knows what else, and we have no knowledge of what their vetting system is like.

Who do they, who are they looking up for responsibility? Who's responsible for that? Jesse Miley-Dyer was the, the, the, the founding member of that, that organization within the WSL, but, you know, she's not there anymore, so who, who hand- handles that? You know? Those are... That's crazy in some ways. And there are women at the top at the WSL.

That's the other thing that I, I always find wild with anything in, in this world these days, where [00:48:00] you can have white, Black, brown, yellow, all, all sorts of people at high places. That doesn't mean you're going to get justice and you're gonna get fairness either. That's the other thing that I think we, we tend to put too much on a image as opposed to actually doing something.

Yeah, I think that's 100% correct and a really good point to make because we-- It's not who is in these systems, it's the structures, it's the bones themselves, right? So I, the way that I describe it, like to describe it is if you have plumbing in your house, it doesn't matter what you put in the pipes, it's gonna flow exactly the same.

It could be water, it could be sewage, it could be... It's going to go in the pipes, right? If you're truly invested in change, you have to tear up the foundation and look at the pipes and reorient the pipes, right? [00:49:00] And, and unless you do that, it doesn't matter who is sitting in the top position, whether it's a man, a woman, it doesn't matter who it is.

The system itself is still going to continue to pump out irresponsible outcomes and dangerous outcomes

And, and it doesn't seem to help that Ziff has been mentioned in the Epstein files,

Oh my gosh, I couldn't believe-- I have to tell you, I have to tell you. I was...

Go on.

So, but okay. But so here's,

Just be careful.

thing.

End everything with allegedly.

Um, yeah, that was, that was wild. And also, um, I was watching a film the other day and saw Stephanie Gilmore and Kelly Slater's name, along with Dirk Ziff and his wife, um, at an event, the Met Gala of 2014. And

know who there

with, uh-- and he-- sitting at their table. At their table, right? [00:50:00] So, um, the, the top, the top of the top, the cream was at the transition from the ASP as Zosi came in and Dirk Ziff was, was, was acquiring the, the, the WSL. He took the top two surfers and took them to meet Jeffrey Epstein

That, that's... You just blew my mind. Jesus. Sweet baby Jesus, that's crazy

And so who would complain? Who would say anything if that was what you were being given

Yeah

as a, as a, as a, uh, as an attaboy for supporting the transition into this media organization, which is where it sits now? I mean, the... It's wild

It's crazy. [00:51:00] And, and it, it, it comes back to then how do we hold them accountable? How do we change that system? Is it, you know... And the thing is like, I feel like since this, this happened in Tahiti, I have yet to, and unfortunately, I, I know that a lot of the female surfers they're, they're under this, this rule that WSL you can't disparage, but it, it feels like something that you'd want them to speak out on, and they don't feel safe to do that.

And that is damning in itself, I think, of the system

100. It is absolutely, it's damning. It should not be. Um, it's wrong. It's completely anti-free speech, which is un-American, and obviously there's not just Americans in- involved, but, um... So I'll tell you, the, the best thing that I think that could happen is that all of the athletes rise up [00:52:00] and collectively take ownership of the WSL, and it become an athlete-owned organization.

Strip the top

Yeah. Well, that's what it was originally, the ASP was originally supposed to be. This, um, this cooperative between the surfers who would have ownership and the sponsors as well. And you had a surfers union who negotiated a lot of the stuff too. Not saying it was a good, great system either, and the women definitely got slighted very heavily on that, but it was something that was the initial concept of the ASP, was a surfer-owned organization.

Um, I'm, I'm curious, like, I don't know if you followed that there's this new surfing league forming in Australia where it's like a, more of a team league that is being formed, and it's supposed to launch, I believe, in like 2028, and it's gonna be basically like, kinda like sports teams [00:53:00] representing different areas.

And, you know, Owen Wright right now is, is championing it, and I think there's an opportunity there to actually lobby them to put these, to build a proper foundation and to, to put in the safeguards that could, um, compete with the WSL and could actually draw people away from the WSL by promoting that.

That could be a way to help push change. Maybe it's not changing the WSL, but maybe it's right now being able to possibly influence a rival system that could ri- you know, could change things.

I love that. I absolutely love that. I also love the idea that it, it stops being something that's purely ind- individual, that there's this component of, of we're, we're together in a different way. Um, one of the things I was having a conversation with a friend about was, was this idea of like, what do you do with surf contests now in, in a [00:54:00] world where everything is, is competition, right?

You can't get away from it. You're online and, you know, all you're seeing is, is, you know, comparing yourself to other people. And, and I thought, you know, there's, there's also this, um, really amazing collective of people over in Italy that came together, a community of surfers who came together to save a surf break.

Угу

And they did it by doing a, you know, an event that was basically just multiple free expression sessions, expression sessions, and it turned into a giant festival that they now have every year. I, I think, again, this idea that we do things differently rather than following this, this same model that has-- th- that we've followed with the ASP and the WSL that crowns a world champion, um, really doesn't, doesn't utilize surfing the way that it could actually be utilized.

And, and so getting creative and doing something different that brings the joy back in, um, for so many [00:55:00] different reasons is... I'm, I'm on board. I love it.

I personally would love to see a WWE-style surf format where it's, "I challenge you," and, you know, and also I think that opens it up to being mixed gender as well. And I actually think, I personally, I was saying this, I think competitive surfing should not be done by gender, but should be done by weight class.

And I think that would allow for more of a mix-up, and I think it would actually raise the bar of women surfing, and I think it would also really change the attitude and behaviors, because surfing is, is, uh, at the end of the day, I feel like more technique than physicality than anything. You know, it's the technique.

If you got perfect technique, you can compete with almost anyone, I think. Um, so I think like, you know, it's just weight and, and muscle mass that, that sometimes affect it. But so you, you know, the lower weight [00:56:00] classes will naturally probably have more women than men, but you can have some men competing in there too, and I think that'd be kinda cool and fun to watch.

And then you throw in the spectacle with like a ring, an announcer, and they do the, "I'm gonna take you down, brother. What you gonna do?" You know, that sort of stuff. It would be really fun and, and that way you can also run it within a few hours instead of a whole week of competition. Uh, and it makes it packageable.

That, that's, uh, that's my idea, you know, throwing it in there.

Cori: Love it. I love it.

Tyler: But like that's, I think that's a, that's a future, you know? Because I think also, like you said, women are now f- potentially 40% of the surfing population. And I've always said this to people, like, the reason maybe you don't see as many women on the level as men right now is because there's a smaller talent pool to draw from.

There's just not as many women surfing as men are, so you have less people to draw [00:57:00] from. You also don't have the investments, the money, the time, the energy that has been put into it. All of that stuff I think is really, uh, would help elevate everything for sure.

Yeah. And I also think it's, it's interesting that we, we measure or have measured women against sort of men for a very long time. And I, I wonder what would happen if, if we just allowed for women to surf the way that they're-- the way that they wanted to, right? So again, you've got like this, this constructed way that the, that the surf industry has pushed the male surfer and everything is measured against that.

I don't, I don't, yeah, I don't think that that needs to be, so

Why can't the men be judged to the women's standard too? I think, I think sometimes men are too masculine with their surfing or too, too much force and not enough grace, you know? And honestly, like, I'd much rather watch Steph Gilmore than, than many of the surfers [00:58:00] on tour. I'd much rather watch Katie Simmers than many of the men on tour, you know, because there's something, um, ephemeral about their surfing that I can't really place, but it's just something that is so much more appealing, uh, than watching brute force, which can be ugly and not pretty, and goes against the grain of the wave and doesn't flow naturally, and I think that's a problem too.

So, we could flip that too, I think.

Yeah, 100%. But I think like there's, there's as many ways of expressing yourself on a wave as there are surfers out there. The less restrictions, the less restrictions that we have around them, the more interesting surfing becomes

So what, what do we do now, I guess is the question. And, uh, one, I wanna, I want you to, to talk about No More Excuses and how this has been forming and where you think that might go and how [00:59:00] that could lead to action

Sure, yeah. Um, I'm really excited to be organizing the Encinitas No Excuses, No More Excuses paddle out for, uh, November 15th, um, this Sunday at 10:00 AM. Um, there's a global movement of women and allies who are coming together to draw attention to this, to say no more, um, letting our community, letting the industry, letting the WSL know that, um, enough is enough.

And it's intergenerational, right? So you have folks like me, my mom, uh, all the way down to, to young surfers who are coming out for it. And, um, it's really inspiring and it's really taking off. So there was one-- Obviously the first one was at Clark's Beach, Byron Bay in, in Australia. The second one was over in Japan, and we're the third one.

Um, hopefully we're not the last and, um, just really looking forward to, to the event. [01:00:00] Um, it's at the same place, I find this pretty amazing, but it's at the same place that the Black Lives Matter protest paddle out was, and that, that was, uh, a movement in surfing that I never thought I would see. And the, the fact that this will also be held in the same location, um, is starting to build a tradition of social justice in surfing, um, at least on, on this side of the, the, the coast, uh, in California.

Um, really showing that surfing can c- as a global community, can make some really big statements around what needs to happen. So really excited about it, looking forward to it.

Have you or has anyone with, with No More Excuses heard from WSL or any governing body about this and support or just acknowledgement that they're listening or hear them?

Not in the upper [01:01:00] echelons. We've got plenty of, of surfers themselves who have been, as they can, quietly talking. Um, but not, not the WSL themselves as far as I'm aware

Do you... Once the paddle-outs happen, is, do you think there's gonna be acti- some other actions that can, can happen to move it forward? You know, um, sh- like, is there a petition out there that we could be s-signing, or is there any-anything that we can take action with to show that those of us who, who are on, on board with this, that we want change?

You know, that we want

Yeah, I mean, it's a really good question, and I think it speaks to the action items that, uh, need to come out of something like this, right? We don't just wanna paddle out and, and have it be, uh, you know, just that. So I think at this point, what we're doing is we're [01:02:00] directing people to the groups and the organizations that are actually doing this work.

Like, for example, there's an organization called Changing Tides in Encinitas, um, that, yeah, that does some amazing work with, with women and girls. Um, so I think the first thing i- in any movement is to raise awareness. The second thing-- And that's what the petition does as well, is it raises awareness, and it raises the noise level so that something must be done.

After you get the global momentum, then you walk in, and you start demanding the types of changes that, that will make a difference. And I think the very first thing that, that should be done is this non-disparagement clause and needing to get, needing to get rid of it, right? And then for there to actually be a, um, something internal to the WSL, which is, uh, allows for folks to go and express e- their experiences so that there is a way of elevating complaints [01:03:00] and measurable, um, actions that the WSL would take or the ISA would take, um, to, uh, to prevent, to punish, um, to take action against, against these folks.

So I think there's, there's a number of things that can happen from there, but right now it's the raising awareness piece of it, and then the community will come together and start to ask for

Uh, I should say, like, the, you know, uh, according to Inertia, the WSL did hire, um, this former lawyer for the Austral- Australian Olympic Committee CEO, her name's, uh, Fiona de Jong, to review their safety and conduct policies, and I'm curious, like, to see what comes out of that as well. So they, they-- I should mention that they are taking-- They're-- It's a step, but it just feels so silent right now.

It [01:04:00] just feels so silent, and it feels so weird, you know, that they still, you know, certain people have not been named, and even though the, it's publicly people have spoken about it. And, and I don't even know, like, has Stab even really covered this? I haven't seen anything from Stab, which tends to be, like, they're the only US-based surf publication right now, which is kind of wild.

They're-- They've always been bro code. I think if they were to start calling out this type of behavior, they'd have to take a very strong look at themselves because I... Not, not to, uh... Maybe I'll just stop there. I think, I think you, you don't, you don't call out behavior that you yourself might be also held accountable for.

Um, like, right? If you start, if you start publishing things and somebody gets the, the bright idea, like, and s- says, "Hey, wait a minute. You're being a [01:05:00] hypocrite because here's my experience." So I think some of the silence may be indicative of the fact that this is, uh, a lot more pervasive than we had thought, right?

If you, if you have ma- if you have, um, organizations, media organizations that typically would jump all over this and they're not jumping all over this, then maybe the behavior hits a little too close to home,

Well, I mean, looking at Beach Crit and Lucy Small posts something and, you know, and they, they make her the victim you know? Like, they try to make her out to be the bad guy, and she's the victim of something that was pretty awful. You know, uh, lewd, uh, sexually overt comments towards her by a well-known, uh, surf figure, you know.

And then they post something that shames her almost, which is kind of

That's, that is precisely the type of behavior, and they did that to me when I was making statements as well. They love to have their one little individual that they'll come after because they're, they're [01:06:00] such big, great guys, because that's literally their role within the hierarchy and the, the-- and using the organizing principle of humiliation and shame is the way that they signal to their bros that, "Hey, Shaka, I'm still in with you guys," even though nobody can stand those guys. But they love the shit that they sling because it reminds everybody that if you don't follow along, if you don't remain loyal to the brotocracy, then you're gonna get this t- same type of behavior, right? They care not one bit about women. They just care about signaling to their bros. And Beach Grit is a perfect example of the organizing principle that is, that is at work in these surfing forums, in the anonymous chats, and in surf culture itself

I mean, Derek Riley just gives off Russell Brand vibes to me. I don't know about you. You know? [01:07:00] Like, pretty sure that guy has probably done, you know... Well, I'm not gonna say anything, but it's, it's kinda wild, you know? And with Chaz Smith, I mean, his wife is supposed to be an agent and was a female pro snowboarder, and you're kinda like you'd expect more, I think, of that attitude and people to be-- them to be, you know, whatever.

Uh, it's just,

it's,

the, it's, it's the structure. You c- you can't look at the individuals, you have to look at the structure. And their location in the structure is, is the pot stirrers that remind everybody that if you don't behave, we're gonna shame you. If you don't behave, we're gonna hum- humiliate you. We are gonna use everything within our power to make you feel small.

And if you step out of line, this is what you get. They are the police. They are not gonzo journalists. They are the police in this structure. [01:08:00] That is what their role is, and it's, it's definitely not something cool and counterculture. It is, they're police

I've tuned them out for quite some time, but still it, it seems to pop up and you just kind of always are like, "I can't believe you guys are still doing this. I still can't believe..." Some of the titles I'm just like, "Really? Seriously?"

The, the, the best, uh, compliment that I got when I was doing my work, um, and I got called a lot of things. The best compliment that I received, and I took this and I still take this, was Chaz Smith calling me boring. And I was like, "Oh, I have achieved exactly what I want in life, which is to not excite that broken nervous system of yours.

Fantastic."

I want to just discuss a little bit [01:09:00] more, if you have time, like, a bit more about your history with all this and some of your experiences, 'cause I think it's also really important, um, you know, what your experiences were, 'cause, you know, you started out on the women's pro tour, uh, surfing with Keala and Megan Abubo and a few others at that, that generation as well, and then left, went to school, and then came back, you know?

And not a lot of people do that, for one. Like, not a lot of people get educated. And I think that's probably just one of the other structural things that I also think should hap- should be talked about, is there should be an age limit to joining the tour. I don't think a 16-year-old, a 17-year-old should be on tour.

Even 18, you know? I think you should finish school, should not be homeschooled, you should [01:10:00] be going to, getting a real degree, and then you can make that choice. But I think it's insane that we have, like... There's, like, a 15-year-old girl on the women's tour. That doesn't make sense to me at all. And I'm curious, like your experience being young, going on tour, and having the benefit of leaving and coming back, what was that like and your-- and how that informs your, your opinions on this?

Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think it's such an insightful thing that you've noticed too, which is that the level of education of a lot of the surfers, you know, a lot of them ended, ended up homeschooling. And I think in the newer generations they're homeschooling now, um, before they get on the tour. Uh, but so there's actually a, a really interesting distinction, a gender distinc- distinction in, in education, and a distinction by the type of board that you ride, right?

So I used to tell people back in the [01:11:00] day when longboarding was-- women's longboarding was sort of trying to, to make it into the spaces of the WSL or the ASP at the time, that because, um, women's longboarding had maybe like one or two, three max events per year and very little money, that the women longboarders were the best educated, the most educated surfers on the tour, right?

You had chemists, you had nurses, you had anesthesiologists. I mean, they were highly educated individuals who were, uh, who were doing these things. Um, the-- obviously, the more that you surf, the less that you can dedicate to your, to your education because you have to train, et cetera. And so that's a way of, of maintaining control over your, your monetary resource if your monetary resource is an athlete, right?

You keep them, um, below... You keep them sub-parly educated. So I made the decision 2001 after I had won two [01:12:00] world surfing championships on a longboard, because I did. You, you're right, I did. I went back and forth with surfing quite a bit. The, um, the, the story I was telling you earlier about what Rip Curl had done was my first exit from the surf realm.

That was when I stopped being on the Shortboard Tour, was because I had walked away from a good sponsorship to try to go with Rip Curl, and so I couldn't afford to be back on tour because I-- because of that. So that was my first-- That was when I first left, and that was, um Uh, about 1998, went back to school, and then moved to San Francisco where I was continuing to pursue school.

Because if I'm gonna not be surfing professionally, then I need to figure out some other way of, of making a living, and I'd always wanted to go to college. Um, when the Women's World Longboard Club, uh, Contest first started in [01:13:00] 1999, it was the first Women's World Longboard Surfing Championship that they had held for, like, 60 years, and it was in Boca Barranca in Costa Rica.

My mom came and got me and said, "You have to be a part of this. It's a world history, you know, event." And I was like, "Okay, fine." I had just finished a semester, drove back down from San Francisco, ended up making second place in that heat, um, in the final. Um, the judges actually changed the rules in the middle of the heat.

What?

Here's another example of understanding something about meritocracy. To benefit, to benefit